** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Psamathe
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 11 Sep 2016, 10:14pm

PH wrote:
meic wrote:There may well be Brexit but it will be a cosmetic one, that is why they are giving time for the pressure to die down while slowly dripping a long stream of "not quite what you thought Brexit was's".

Yes, but we're going to take back control.
Though I don't know who the "we" are and I'm pretty sure the control will stay with those who've always had it.

AND we are going to get to vote for our leaders, no more having them appointed over us un-democratically like that EU ... oh err, gosh, I really don't remember getting a chance to vote for Ms May to lead us ... but I'm sure she would never be just appointed to lead us without a democratic election like that horrible EU thing does and that Ms May, having become our leader just a few weeks after we rejected having our leaders appointed ... I'm confused (and rather disappointed).

Ian

blackbike
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby blackbike » 11 Sep 2016, 10:31pm

How old are you Ian?

Before Mrs May took the job I could remember the prime minister changing three times without an election, and it happened many times before I can remember.

That's why I wasn't confused when it happened again this summer.

Anyone who has a reasonable knowledge of our history and constitutional arrangements is unlikely to be confused by a relatively common occurrence of a perfectly ordinary nature.

pete75
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pete75 » 11 Sep 2016, 10:42pm

blackbike wrote:How old are you Ian?

Before Mrs May took the job I could remember the prime minister changing three times without an election, and it happened many times before I can remember.

That's why I wasn't confused when it happened again this summer.

Anyone who has a reasonable knowledge of our history and constitutional arrangements is unlikely to be confused by a relatively common occurrence of a perfectly ordinary nature.


Yeah and the last time it happened those on the right were moaning like hell about the "unelected" PM.

Psamathe
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 12 Sep 2016, 7:37am

blackbike wrote:How old are you Ian?

Before Mrs May took the job I could remember the prime minister changing three times without an election, and it happened many times before I can remember.

That's why I wasn't confused when it happened again this summer.

Anyone who has a reasonable knowledge of our history and constitutional arrangements is unlikely to be confused by a relatively common occurrence of a perfectly ordinary nature.

But we were clearly told it should not happen and that we should be able to democratically elect our leaders. What happened before is not relevant as the Leave campaign told us how bad that was (though in the context of the EU). How can it be so terrible for EU to use allegedly "undemocratic means" to find a leader but in the UK the same system is quite acceptable. Cameron or May could have realised that Brexit means Brexit and called an election. But Ms May chose that Brexit did not mean Brexit and they wanted power too badly to risk actually asking the electorate what they wanted - strange as the electorate had just a few weeks ago said they wanted to democratically elect our leaders.

Ian

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pete75 » 12 Sep 2016, 7:51am

PH wrote: At the risk of being called a Britain Hater


A phrase popularised by Paul Dacre in the Daily Mail when he used it to criticise Ralph Miliband , father of Ed and David. This being the same Ralph Miliband who spent the war years in the Royal Navy while Dacre's father Peter served in the vital role of show business correspondent on the Daily Express. Some among us believe actions speak louder than words.

The phrase is generally used by folk to describe others who don't share their own vision of Britain.

thirdcrank
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Sep 2016, 10:25am

The thing that has changed is that what was once a cabinet system, with a prime minister first among others each with their own portfolio responsibilities, has become a presidency, without a directly elected president.

Once upon a time, the relevant ministry would work on a policy and then the minister would present it to the Cabinet for discussion and approval or rejection. Once agreed, a policy was supported by the entire cabinet and if push came to shove, a dissenter would resign.

A classic textbook example was the introduction of the death grant by the post-war Labour govt: when the policy was introduced in the House of Commons (something else that has passed into history) the PM Clement Attlee began by saying he considered this such an important proposal that he had got the permission of the secretary of state to let him announce it. Also from that era, the textbook example of the House of Commons being the first to be told, was when Chancellor of the Exchequer, Hugh Dalton, was forced to resign for a minor leak just before presenting his Budget. The bits that are kept secret in modern Budgets are just there to provide media scoops to ensure attention is paid.

In the last few days we have had several ministers with Brexit responsibilities making policy comments on Brexit-related matters and being contradicted either by the PM or "sources at No 10."

The latest wheeze for making policy announcements seems to be to walk along Downing Street with "confidential" documents in transparent plastic files where they can be accidentally snapped by press photographers. And suddenly, grammar schools are the hot topic.

Back to the thread title, Humpty Dumpty set the trend:
When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.

blackbike
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby blackbike » 12 Sep 2016, 1:32pm

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:How old are you Ian?

Before Mrs May took the job I could remember the prime minister changing three times without an election, and it happened many times before I can remember.

That's why I wasn't confused when it happened again this summer.

Anyone who has a reasonable knowledge of our history and constitutional arrangements is unlikely to be confused by a relatively common occurrence of a perfectly ordinary nature.

But we were clearly told it should not happen and that we should be able to democratically elect our leaders. What happened before is not relevant as the Leave campaign told us how bad that was (though in the context of the EU). How can it be so terrible for EU to use allegedly "undemocratic means" to find a leader but in the UK the same system is quite acceptable. Cameron or May could have realised that Brexit means Brexit and called an election. But Ms May chose that Brexit did not mean Brexit and they wanted power too badly to risk actually asking the electorate what they wanted - strange as the electorate had just a few weeks ago said they wanted to democratically elect our leaders.

Ian


You must be so disappointed at post-referendum Britain if you expected democracy to break out all over the place, with elections for everything from the local lollipop lady to a change in the time honoured way we choose our prime ministers, a way which predates out membership if the EEC/EC/EU by a very long time.

It is hilarious how the Remain side were anti-referendum and hated the idea of consulting the Great British Public on EU membership, and now they claim to be annoyed that we don't have votes to decide absolutely everything.

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meic
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby meic » 12 Sep 2016, 1:36pm

It is hilarious how the Remain side were anti-referendum and hated the idea of consulting the Great British Public on EU membership, and now they claim to be annoyed that we don't have votes to decide absolutely everything.

Both hilarious and untrue!

There were some people who supported remain who felt those things, there were almost certainly some remain voters who beat their wives or owned a Bentley too, you cant actually extrapolate that to remain voters drive Bentleys and beat their wives.

PS. the anti-referendum result petition was started by a leave campaigner.
Yma o Hyd

Psamathe
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 12 Sep 2016, 3:26pm

blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:How old are you Ian?

Before Mrs May took the job I could remember the prime minister changing three times without an election, and it happened many times before I can remember.

That's why I wasn't confused when it happened again this summer.

Anyone who has a reasonable knowledge of our history and constitutional arrangements is unlikely to be confused by a relatively common occurrence of a perfectly ordinary nature.

But we were clearly told it should not happen and that we should be able to democratically elect our leaders. What happened before is not relevant as the Leave campaign told us how bad that was (though in the context of the EU). How can it be so terrible for EU to use allegedly "undemocratic means" to find a leader but in the UK the same system is quite acceptable. Cameron or May could have realised that Brexit means Brexit and called an election. But Ms May chose that Brexit did not mean Brexit and they wanted power too badly to risk actually asking the electorate what they wanted - strange as the electorate had just a few weeks ago said they wanted to democratically elect our leaders.

Ian


You must be so disappointed at post-referendum Britain if you expected democracy to break out all over the place, with elections for everything from the local lollipop lady to a change in the time honoured way we choose our prime ministers, a way which predates out membership if the EEC/EC/EU by a very long time.
....

I don't know where you got the idea I was proposing elections for lollipop ladies - I certainly was not and never suggested that.

But, we were clearly told (again and again) by the Leave Campaign how wrong it was that our leaders are appointed rather than us getting to elect them democratically. And part of Brexit was that we would get to elect our leaders (no longer having them appointed). So "getting our own house in order" before telling everybody else how to do things democratically would seem a good idea.

I was not suggesting we change the way our Prime Minister is appointed - it was Vote Leave that was actually suggesting that by arguing so strongly that appointed leaders are so so wrong that we need to leave the EU to get away from such undemocratic behaviour. So we set about that only to discover we are already doing the same undemocratic things already and have no intention of changing that. In fact, when you look at the House of Lords we are far far worse than the EU - but that did not seem to concern all those ex-Public School Vote Leave politicians.

Ian

blackbike
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby blackbike » 12 Sep 2016, 4:30pm

Psamathe wrote:I don't know where you got the idea I was proposing elections for lollipop ladies - I certainly was not and never suggested that.

But, we were clearly told (again and again) by the Leave Campaign how wrong it was that our leaders are appointed rather than us getting to elect them democratically. And part of Brexit was that we would get to elect our leaders (no longer having them appointed). So "getting our own house in order" before telling everybody else how to do things democratically would seem a good idea.

I was not suggesting we change the way our Prime Minister is appointed - it was Vote Leave that was actually suggesting that by arguing so strongly that appointed leaders are so so wrong that we need to leave the EU to get away from such undemocratic behaviour. So we set about that only to discover we are already doing the same undemocratic things already and have no intention of changing that. In fact, when you look at the House of Lords we are far far worse than the EU - but that did not seem to concern all those ex-Public School Vote Leave politicians.

Ian



Form a constitutional point of view, apart from a few, miserable, moaning Remainers I haven't heard anyone say they want anything to change as a result of Brexit except that the EU is denied any further role in our government and law making.

Once we are rid of the baleful bossiness of Brussels we'll be back to where we were before - jogging along with our own preferred system including the House of Lords, Prime Ministers elected by the ruling political party and full sovereignty for our own elected parliament.

That is what most people want, and they see no reason to have a load of bureaucrats, unelected commissioners and a noddy, rubber stamp parliament full of foreigners in Brussels overseeing and overruling an emasculated and diminished parliament at Westminster.

I suggest that people who do treasure the supremacy of Brussels emigrate to other EU countries so they can continue to enjoy it.

Psamathe
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 12 Sep 2016, 4:44pm

blackbike wrote:...
Once we are rid of the baleful bossiness of Brussels we'll be back to where we were before - jogging along with our own preferred system including the House of Lords, Prime Ministers elected by the ruling political party and full sovereignty for our own elected parliament.

That is what most people want, and they see no reason to have a load of bureaucrats, unelected commissioners and a noddy, rubber stamp parliament full of foreigners in Brussels overseeing and overruling an emasculated and diminished parliament at Westminster.....

And how do you know this ? From memory what you are proposing was not asked in the recent referendum.

Ian

blackbike
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Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby blackbike » 12 Sep 2016, 5:06pm

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:...
Once we are rid of the baleful bossiness of Brussels we'll be back to where we were before - jogging along with our own preferred system including the House of Lords, Prime Ministers elected by the ruling political party and full sovereignty for our own elected parliament.

That is what most people want, and they see no reason to have a load of bureaucrats, unelected commissioners and a noddy, rubber stamp parliament full of foreigners in Brussels overseeing and overruling an emasculated and diminished parliament at Westminster.....

And how do you know this ? From memory what you are proposing was not asked in the recent referendum.

Ian


You are beginning to lose me know. All this tortured logic by Remainers to try to convince us that we have all been fooled, let down and betrayed by the government since the vote is getting increasingly desperate.

We leave voters are not impressed with this approach, any more than we were impressed by the relentless scaremongering and allegations of stupidity, racism and gullibility aimed at us during the referendum campaign.

The pro-EU side's methods in this debate will probably go down in our political history as the best way to lose a vote.

Was defeat ever snatched so beautifully from the jaws of victory?

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 12 Sep 2016, 6:17pm

blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:...
Once we are rid of the baleful bossiness of Brussels we'll be back to where we were before - jogging along with our own preferred system including the House of Lords, Prime Ministers elected by the ruling political party and full sovereignty for our own elected parliament.

That is what most people want, and they see no reason to have a load of bureaucrats, unelected commissioners and a noddy, rubber stamp parliament full of foreigners in Brussels overseeing and overruling an emasculated and diminished parliament at Westminster.....

And how do you know this ? From memory what you are proposing was not asked in the recent referendum.

Ian


You are beginning to lose me know. All this tortured logic by Remainers to try to convince us that we have all been fooled, let down and betrayed by the government since the vote is getting increasingly desperate.

We leave voters are not impressed with this approach, any more than we were impressed by the relentless scaremongering and allegations of stupidity, racism and gullibility aimed at us during the referendum campaign.

The pro-EU side's methods in this debate will probably go down in our political history as the best way to lose a vote.

Was defeat ever snatched so beautifully from the jaws of victory?

Straight forward question, how do you know that our preferred system is now "including the House of Lords, Prime Ministers elected by the ruling political party and full sovereignty for our own elected parliament." and how do you know people "see no reason to have a load of bureaucrats, unelected commissioners and a noddy, rubber stamp parliament full of foreigners in Brussels overseeing and overruling an emasculated and diminished parliament at Westminster".

Because that was not the question on the referendum ballot paper.

Ian

blackbike
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby blackbike » 12 Sep 2016, 7:10pm

Psamathe wrote:[

Straight forward question, how do you know that our preferred system is now "including the House of Lords, Prime Ministers elected by the ruling political party and full sovereignty for our own elected parliament." and how do you know people "see no reason to have a load of bureaucrats, unelected commissioners and a noddy, rubber stamp parliament full of foreigners in Brussels overseeing and overruling an emasculated and diminished parliament at Westminster".

Because that was not the question on the referendum ballot paper.

Ian


I know in the same way that many bitter Remainers seem to know that the result was due to the stupidity, racism and gullibility of Leave voters, and that there should be a second referendum because people voted the wrong way.

And just like them I'm not shy about voicing my opinions.

reohn2
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby reohn2 » 12 Sep 2016, 7:21pm

Some people just love a wind up don't they?
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