** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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blackbike
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby blackbike » 13 Sep 2016, 3:30pm

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:...
Acts of Parliament are made by the people we elect, and we can get rid of them if they do things we don't like ....

Excellent point. And thus Parliament can repeal the European Communities Act 1972. And that is for Parliament to do, NOT for the PM to use a prerogative power. Lords seem to agree as well (agree that it is for Parliament to act on NOT for the PM alone, particularly as the referendum was only advisory).

Ian


The Lords are mainly advisory, and largely irrelevant.

Psamathe
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 13 Sep 2016, 3:45pm

blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:...
Acts of Parliament are made by the people we elect, and we can get rid of them if they do things we don't like ....

Excellent point. And thus Parliament can repeal the European Communities Act 1972. And that is for Parliament to do, NOT for the PM to use a prerogative power. Lords seem to agree as well (agree that it is for Parliament to act on NOT for the PM alone, particularly as the referendum was only advisory).

Ian


The Lords are mainly advisory, and largely irrelevant.

Maybe, but I completely agree with you about Parliament being the ones to make and repeal laws and not the PM doing it undemocratically because she has been advised to something.

Ian

pete75
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pete75 » 13 Sep 2016, 3:54pm

blackbike wrote:
pete75 wrote:
The whole point of having the Human Rights Act is to protect us against actions of the government. It's good that the highest court supervising this is supra national and so is independent of the government. A British Bill of Rights could be alter at any time by the government if they were losing cases which, in any case, would be unlikely as decisions will be made by judges appointed by the Lord Chancellor, currently Liz Truss, and beholden to her both in that office and her other role as minister of justice.


A curious argument.

Acts of Parliament are made by the people we elect, and we can get rid of them if they do things we don't like concerning human rights or anything else. We can elect people to make new laws we do like. An elected UK parliament altering laws is no problem whatsoever as long as we have free and fair democratic elections.

Having an international body to oversee things is no safeguard at all as its laws are made by people we cannot elect or get rid of directly. For example, if the Germans decide to have a fascist government again, and to elect fascist MEPs who have a say in making European laws including those on human rights, we Brits cannot get rid of those MEPs at any election at all. This is something to think about as much of the EU lurches to the right and the possibility of far right governments in the EU is not entirely improbable.

To highlight the dangers of foreign interference in our domestic affairs consider another international organisation which pontificates on human rights. That is the United Nations. It main human rights body is the United Nations Human Rights Council, That council is currently chaired by a representative from Saudi Arabia, a country with an appalling record on human rights, including suppression of free speech, np free press or elections and persecution of women and minorities like gays.

Foreign intervention in our affairs is needless and possibly dangerous.


It's rare for new governments to repeal laws passed by a previous administration particularly if they're ones which increase government power. What you say is fine in theory but a rather naive view of what happens in practice. Elections are usually decided by the state of the economy, popularity of party leaders and who newspaper proprietors decide to support.

The European Convention on Human Rights which is incorporated into our act is nothing to do with the European Parliament and cannot be altered by MEPS.

You appear to be arguing against yourself - almost all of your postings in this section of the forum indicate you have far right views so why do you regard the possibility of far right governments as a bad thing?

The UN cannot interfere in the domestic affairs of this or any other country unless it is invited to do so or a resolution to do so is passed. The latter can be vetoed by any permanent member of the security council. Britain is one of them.

thirdcrank
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Sep 2016, 3:59pm

blackbike wrote: ... if the Germans decide to have a fascist government again, and to elect fascist MEPs who have a say in making European laws including those on human rights, we Brits cannot get rid of those MEPs at any election at all. This is something to think about as much of the EU lurches to the right and the possibility of far right governments in the EU is not entirely improbable. ....


The convention on human rights was established as a direct result of the last time the Germans elected a fascist government and We British decided to establish some basic principles - human rights - and in due course a legal system was put in place to ensure the protection of those rights. Although this is European, it runs alongside other European institutions like the EU, not as part of them.

There have been occasions when the actions of the British Government or quasi-government organisations have been successfully challenged by people who felt their human rights had not been honoured.

It may seem infra dig for We British to be accused by foreigners of lapses in this area but taking our bat home - just on the grounds that they don't understand cricket - would really be beyond the pale.

If I had any concerns about the establishment of some sort of fascist government in Europe, I'd be looking nearer home.

pete75 posted as I was typing this

Psamathe
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby Psamathe » 13 Sep 2016, 4:24pm

blackbike wrote: ... if the Germans decide to have a fascist government again, and to elect fascist MEPs who have a say in making European laws including those on human rights, we Brits cannot get rid of those MEPs at any election at all.....
In the same way as should Wales or Manchester or any part of the UK decide to gave a fascist or communist or anything MPs who have a say in making UK laws we cannot get rid of them in any election (only those in the constituencies who elected them can get rid of them).

It's the way our democratic/electoral system works (in the UK for Westminster as well as in the EU for the European Parliament). We may or may not like the MPs e.g. Scotland/Wales/N. Ireland/NE/etc elect to Westminster and we (outside those regions) can do nothing about them as it's down to those who they represent to elect or get rid of them.

Ian

pwa
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pwa » 13 Sep 2016, 4:30pm

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote: ... if the Germans decide to have a fascist government again, and to elect fascist MEPs who have a say in making European laws including those on human rights, we Brits cannot get rid of those MEPs at any election at all.....
In the same way as should Wales or Manchester or any part of the UK decide to gave a fascist or communist or anything MPs who have a say in making UK laws we cannot get rid of them in any election (only those in the constituencies who elected them can get rid of them).

It's the way our democratic/electoral system works (in the UK for Westminster as well as in the EU for the European Parliament). We may or may not like the MPs e.g. Scotland/Wales/N. Ireland/NE/etc elect to Westminster and we (outside those regions) can do nothing about them as it's down to those who they represent to elect or get rid of them.

Ian


There is no chance of us electing a fascist MP here in the Vale of Glamorgan. I doubt there are many constituencies in the UK where that is thinkable.

reohn2
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby reohn2 » 13 Sep 2016, 4:33pm

pwa wrote:....... I doubt there are many constituencies in the UK where that is thinkable.


Fascism has many faces,some quite human.
They're a bit like Weasels they look cute and furry but kill indiscriminately,the difference being Weasels have the guts to do it themselves whereas Fascists recruit others to do the killling* for them so they may profit.


*killing in this context isn't necessarily the body but the soul whilst leaving the body intact
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bovlomov
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby bovlomov » 13 Sep 2016, 4:45pm

reohn2 wrote:Fascism has many faces,some quite human.

I have a Police Handbook from the 1980s, in which fascism is defined quite broadly. If I recall correctly, it says that there are elements of fascism within all mainstream Westminster parties. I don't think it is any less true now than then.

pwa
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pwa » 13 Sep 2016, 4:46pm

reohn2 wrote:
pwa wrote:....... I doubt there are many constituencies in the UK where that is thinkable.


Fascism has many faces,some quite human


My picture of Fascism is precise and distinct. It includes the removal of democracy, the imposition of authoritarian rule, and the imprisonment and execution of dissenters. "Ethnic cleansing" is another possible feature. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco set the template. Using the word "fascism" too freely takes away from its meaning. There are Right Wing political movements that I don't like but are not Fascist.

PH
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby PH » 13 Sep 2016, 5:47pm

pwa wrote:My picture of Fascism is precise and distinct. It includes the removal of democracy

Well, Germany held several Referendums in the 1930s, probably the most relevent was about the withdrawal from the League of Nations.

reohn2
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby reohn2 » 13 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

pwa wrote:My picture of Fascism is precise and distinct. It includes the removal of democracy, the imposition of authoritarian rule, and the imprisonment and execution of dissenters. "Ethnic cleansing" is another possible feature. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco set the template. Using the word "fascism" too freely takes away from its meaning. There are Right Wing political movements that I don't like but are not Fascist.


But the meaning of the term fascism according to the Oxford dictionary is:-
An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
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meic
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby meic » 13 Sep 2016, 6:05pm

Fascism cant happen here in Britain because there will always be some difference between us and Hitler's regime which means what we have just isnt fascism.
Yma o Hyd

pwa
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby pwa » 13 Sep 2016, 6:15pm

reohn2 wrote:
pwa wrote:My picture of Fascism is precise and distinct. It includes the removal of democracy, the imposition of authoritarian rule, and the imprisonment and execution of dissenters. "Ethnic cleansing" is another possible feature. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco set the template. Using the word "fascism" too freely takes away from its meaning. There are Right Wing political movements that I don't like but are not Fascist.


But the meaning of the term fascism according to the Oxford dictionary is:-
An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.


The definition is okay, if not very precise, but the "authoritarian" bit includes removal of democracy, removal of press freedom, and suppression of any dissent. It's just not something happening in the UK. I don't know about elsewhere.

reohn2
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby reohn2 » 13 Sep 2016, 6:24pm

pwa wrote:The definition is okay, if not very precise, but the "authoritarian" bit includes removal of democracy, removal of press freedom, and suppression of any dissent. It's just not something happening in the UK. I don't know about elsewhere.

You're reading what's not there.
And not reading what is.
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meic
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Re: Brexit means Brexit

Postby meic » 13 Sep 2016, 6:27pm

People dont see it happening in their own countries. The press is after all suppressed, the dissidents are described as something else like traitors or trouble making inciters of violence, the lack of democracy is described as legal infractions by the opposition, modernisation or just emergency measures.
Yma o Hyd