Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

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SpannerGeek
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby SpannerGeek » 22 Nov 2016, 3:47pm

meic wrote:
We don't really need to know why people voted as they did. The result was very clear and the government promise to implement the will of the people could not have been more explicit.


Yes they voted to leave the EU, cant be clearer than that.

An example of leaving the EU is to remove the flag, get a black UK passport and call ourselves non-EU yet still honour all our commitments under the Maastricht treaty.
That's what the people voted for! :D :mrgreen:

Happy? Or would you rather know more accurately what they voted for?


We, the great unwashed will not know what we voted for until it's much too late.

I'd prefer (and there may well be no option) another snap General election before we finally decide to quit. As has been stated many, many times before in other posts, the referendum was only an 'advisory' vote, and not a legally binding decision.

mercalia
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby mercalia » 22 Nov 2016, 3:50pm

pwa wrote:When I spoke to people who intended voting Remain, before the vote, I don't remember a single one being enthusiastically for the EU. The line I got was more along the lines of "I don't like the way the EU goes about things but........". Grudging support based on a calculation that things might be even worse on the other side of the fence. But this is all water under the bridge now.

We can only hope that the people who will negotiate, on all sides, are thinking about what positive vision they have for the EU/UK relationship in the future. Friendly and cooperative or distant and frosty. I know which I would choose and I hope they take a similar view.


we could always threaten to nuke them - just make sure we get France first :lol:

pwa
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby pwa » 22 Nov 2016, 3:54pm

mercalia wrote:
pwa wrote:When I spoke to people who intended voting Remain, before the vote, I don't remember a single one being enthusiastically for the EU. The line I got was more along the lines of "I don't like the way the EU goes about things but........". Grudging support based on a calculation that things might be even worse on the other side of the fence. But this is all water under the bridge now.

We can only hope that the people who will negotiate, on all sides, are thinking about what positive vision they have for the EU/UK relationship in the future. Friendly and cooperative or distant and frosty. I know which I would choose and I hope they take a similar view.


we could always threaten to nuke them - just make sure we get France first :lol:


That might be a bit drastic. I think something a bit more friendly would be a good first move.

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 7:02am

pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:we could always threaten to nuke them - just make sure we get France first :lol:


That might be a bit drastic. I think something a bit more friendly would be a good first move.

Oh I don't know. France would manage to send a considerable amount of it's nuclear arsenal our way before our missiles took out their capability.

A severely radioactive UK should make at least a few EU migrants reconsider the idea of moving to Blighty.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

SpannerGeek
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 7:22am

syklist wrote:
pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:we could always threaten to nuke them - just make sure we get France first :lol:


That might be a bit drastic. I think something a bit more friendly would be a good first move.

Oh I don't know. France would manage to send a considerable amount of it's nuclear arsenal our way before our missiles took out their capability.

A severely radioactive UK should make at least a few EU migrants reconsider the idea of moving to Blighty.


You live in Norway. It's pretty easy to be flippant about immigration and economics when you live in arguably the wealthiest, least densely populated first world nation in the world...

What's Norway's oil fund worth now? $900 billion..
So much that you've run out of public projects (schools, hospitals, roads, bridges) to spend it on.

Build a bridge to Britain. Metaphorically, if you can't afford a literal one at least.

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 7:26am

SpannerGeek wrote:
syklist wrote:
pwa wrote:
That might be a bit drastic. I think something a bit more friendly would be a good first move.

Oh I don't know. France would manage to send a considerable amount of it's nuclear arsenal our way before our missiles took out their capability.

A severely radioactive UK should make at least a few EU migrants reconsider the idea of moving to Blighty.


You live in Norway. It's pretty easy to be flippant about immigration and economics ...

Funnily enough it isn't. The immigration debate is raging here nicely too and Post-truthism is rearing its ugly head. So as an immigrant here in Norway I am fully aware of the issues.

Besides, I still have family* in the UK to worry about. Given recent UK events, humour is one of the few things we have left what with honesty and reasoned debate both having gone down the pan.

So please think about that before you try to take away my right to free speech again. Thanks.


*all with UK passports like me, I might add (bar one).
So long and thanks for all the fish...

SpannerGeek
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 7:32am

syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:
syklist wrote:Oh I don't know. France would manage to send a considerable amount of it's nuclear arsenal our way before our missiles took out their capability.

A severely radioactive UK should make at least a few EU migrants reconsider the idea of moving to Blighty.


You live in Norway. It's pretty easy to be flippant about immigration and economics ...

Funnily enough it isn't. The immigration debate is raging here nicely too and Post-truthism is rearing its ugly head. So as an immigrant here in Norway I am fully aware of the issues.

Besides, I still have family* in the UK to worry about. Given recent UK events, humour is one of the few things we have left what with honesty and reasoned debate both having gone down the pan.

So please think about that before you try to take away my right to free speech again.


*all with UK passports like me, I might add (bar one).


$900 billion in the bank... Enough to feed the starving of the world twice over.

Smashing.

If you want evidence of a country run by family elites, you might take a look at your own back yard. Here's a nice academic piece to get you started: (it's free too, you don't have to pay for it even)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ezq ... es&f=false

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 7:43am

SpannerGeek wrote:
syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:
You live in Norway. It's pretty easy to be flippant about immigration and economics ...

Funnily enough it isn't. The immigration debate is raging here nicely too and Post-truthism is rearing its ugly head. So as an immigrant here in Norway I am fully aware of the issues.

Besides, I still have family* in the UK to worry about. Given recent UK events, humour is one of the few things we have left what with honesty and reasoned debate both having gone down the pan.

So please think about that before you try to take away my right to free speech again.


*all with UK passports like me, I might add (bar one).


$900 billion in the bank... Enough to feed the starving of the world twice over.


So why are you still in the UK if it is so much better here (I mean it is but that's not the point)?

Besides, the UK is also a terribly rich country that could pay lots more to help the starving in the world. Even better soon we'll have UKP 350 million a week extra to play with right?
So long and thanks for all the fish...

SpannerGeek
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Joined: 12 Nov 2015, 2:16pm

Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 7:47am

syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:
syklist wrote:Funnily enough it isn't. The immigration debate is raging here nicely too and Post-truthism is rearing its ugly head. So as an immigrant here in Norway I am fully aware of the issues.

Besides, I still have family* in the UK to worry about. Given recent UK events, humour is one of the few things we have left what with honesty and reasoned debate both having gone down the pan.

So please think about that before you try to take away my right to free speech again.


*all with UK passports like me, I might add (bar one).


$900 billion in the bank... Enough to feed the starving of the world twice over.


So why are you still in the UK if it is so much better here (I mean it is but that's not the point)?

Besides, the UK is also a terribly rich country that could pay lots more to help the starving in the world. Even better soon we'll have UKP 350 million a week extra to play with right?


£350 million? You see, living in Norway has addled your brain! :lol: The establishment told lies, they got found out. The British people voted accordingly. We now have Brexit.

They no longer have their status quo. QED

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 8:13am

SpannerGeek wrote:$900 billion in the bank... Enough to feed the starving of the world twice over.

I take it you approve of what Robert Maxwell did to the Mirror group pension fund? No, why not? That is exactly what you are proposing that Norway does with its Sovereign fund. Use a capital sum set aside for the future to pay for day to day expenditure.

You forget that things are only going to go well here whilst oil is being pumped out from the North Sea. Unlike the UK, Norway does not have the broad industrial base of the UK. It would struggle to feed itself if it could no longer afford to import food. They have little coal apart from on Svalbard so the only energy resource they can depend on (assuming global warming does not produced a significant change in rainfall patterns and the glaciers do not melt) is hydro-electric power.

People in Norway have a phrase "Den nye oljen" "The new oil" which is used to describe all sorts of schemes and products, from the hair-brained to the technically possible, that are supposed to replace oil in the Norwegian economy. Whilst some of them could provide a degree of wealth creation none of them will ever come anywhere near to replacing the economic benefits of oil. So from that point of view there will be no "new oil".

So the sovereign fund is essential to Norway's post oil future.

The fact that other countries don't choose to build up such a buffer for the future, preferring cuts in taxes for the rich over building up a sovereign fund is no a reason to criticise Norway for having done this.

Oh and a piece of history for you, before Norway started pumping oil in the early 70s it was one of the poorest countries in Europe.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 11:04am

SpannerGeek wrote:$900 billion in the bank... Enough to feed the starving of the world twice over.

So what has the UK done with Scotland's oil revenues in the same period?
So long and thanks for all the fish...

SpannerGeek
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby SpannerGeek » 23 Nov 2016, 12:12pm

syklist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:$900 billion in the bank... Enough to feed the starving of the world twice over.

So what has the UK done with Scotland's oil revenues in the same period?


Tax cuts for the rich, regeneration of the south of England. Built the apparatus for the City of London. It's all went south since 1980.

The Scots got a 50 bob parliament.

That just about sums it up.

mercalia
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby mercalia » 23 Nov 2016, 12:19pm

Norway and its sovereign fund - I wish I was Norwegian, has a sensible govt. Does Norway have a national debt?

pwa
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby pwa » 23 Nov 2016, 12:33pm

mercalia wrote:Norway and its sovereign fund - I wish I was Norwegian, has a sensible govt. Does Norway have a national debt?


As with Saudi Arabia the answer is probably No. But does it matter? Is it relevant to anything? Norway has been very lucky to find itself sitting on a huge reservoir of hydrocarbons, making life easy for a relatively small population. Great for them, and I wish them well, but with no real lessons for the rest of us.

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syklist
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Re: Europe’s leaders to force Britain into hard Brexit

Postby syklist » 23 Nov 2016, 1:05pm

mercalia wrote:Norway and its sovereign fund - I wish I was Norwegian,

Well you know, thanks to the EU and the EEA it is not that difficult to become a Norwegian. With an EU/EEA passport you have the right to move here and look for work. If you get work and managed to stay here legally for seven years then you can apply for naturalisation. There is a language requirement but I believe it is not too strict and you will have to give up your original nationality.

mercalia wrote: has a sensible govt. Does Norway have a national debt?

Compared to the UK the government is sensible but the current finance minister is chewing her way through the sovereign fund at an unprecedented rate.

A fund like Norway's sovereign fund would not be possible in the UK as it would require long term cross party consensus and support. I suspect that proportional representation helps in that type of process as politicians are more used to compromise and building coalitions than in countries that have first past the post,
So long and thanks for all the fish...