Do You Think I have a Case...

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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horizon
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby horizon » 11 Jan 2017, 10:00am

PH wrote:Yes you might have a case, no I wouldn't pursue it.
There are lots of reasons a chain might have come off and caused the damage, some of them the responsibility of the supplier, the others not. I can't see how you'd be able to demonstrate which it was.
If it needs it, buy your own mech and hanger, maybe learn how to fit it yourself, write it off to experience and get back out cycling.


+1. I bought a bike last year on-line. It came in a box that had been factory packed by the manufacturer and still had lots to do. Great price but AFAIWC I was on my own. How would I realistically return the bike or sort things out from a distance of 300 miles? I don't even think Triton has a shop, just a warehouse. So far it's all been really fine (great purchase) but I wasn't under any illusion. I also wonder whether the OP's bike really was road-ready. If the OP gets the bike sorted (even for £100) then he's back on the road.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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CREPELLO
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby CREPELLO » 11 Jan 2017, 10:10am

Samuel D wrote:I agree with PH. You weren’t injured and the bicycle damage is minor. It’s hardly worth dragging this out with the retailer, especially since it may not be their fault.

Sometimes when a derailleur and hanger are damaged when a chain breaks, it turns out the chain didn’t just snap out of the blue. Often the derailleur was forced into the wheel because the limit screws weren’t set correctly. The derailleur was then viciously dragged around with the wheel until the chain broke.
There may be a slight contradiction between those two statements, if the derailleur did indeed get dragged into the wheel because the limit screws weren't correctly set (which is very likely - going up a hill you may reach for 1st gear, only to find that the chain goes over the edge of the cassette and into the spokes). Then it most definitely is the retailer's fault (selling a product not fit for purpose) and the OP is entitled to seek appropriate compensation for the cost of rectifying the damage.

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Graham
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby Graham » 11 Jan 2017, 10:17am

Thanks Colin :shock: . . . 'tis the ways of the world !!

This is getting a bit confusing
( 2015 ) Cube Delhi hybrid 3 * 10 derailleur
Later years
Nu-vinci gears with electric motor assist !!

We are talking about a bike with derailleur gears ?

Anyhow experienced types tend to be gentle with the ( derailleur ) gears because getting stranded isn't fun and the cost of ( avoidable ) repairs is painful.

In theory using all these "cutaway components" gear-changing under significant load should be possible.

If you do that can you tell me/us how you get on - e.g. wear rates, breakages . . ..

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CREPELLO
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby CREPELLO » 11 Jan 2017, 10:31am

horizon wrote:
PH wrote:Yes you might have a case, no I wouldn't pursue it.
There are lots of reasons a chain might have come off and caused the damage, some of them the responsibility of the supplier, the others not. I can't see how you'd be able to demonstrate which it was.
If it needs it, buy your own mech and hanger, maybe learn how to fit it yourself, write it off to experience and get back out cycling.


+1. I bought a bike last year on-line. It came in a box that had been factory packed by the manufacturer and still had lots to do. Great price but AFAIWC I was on my own. How would I realistically return the bike or sort things out from a distance of 300 miles? I don't even think Triton has a shop, just a warehouse. So far it's all been really fine (great purchase) but I wasn't under any illusion. I also wonder whether the OP's bike really was road-ready. If the OP gets the bike sorted (even for £100) then he's back on the road.
A good online retailer would arrange with the customer to get the work done locally and refund the costs.

This thread really does press home the need for bikes that are being sold online as "fit for purpose" and "not of satisfactory quality" as defined by consumer law. Plus there is the added concern that an incorrectly set up bike could cause injury or worse. It's a wonder that we don't hear of such stories more often (if ever).

I bought a Dawes Galaxy from an online retailer (also a LBS) back in 2003. I discovered that the bike hadn't been set up properly when I was cycling up a 1in 4 hill in Hastings! You guessed it - the rear mech went into the spokes because of the incorrectly set limit screws. At the time I managed to rescue everything and set the limit screws properly. That was a fairly straightforward job, but I had fallen under the illusion that the shop would have set everything up right. After all, they had installed different handlebars on the bike for me and they were very pleasant to deal with (they went on to replace the forks on that bike twice! With no complaint or reluctance on their part)

It was only some months later that I took the bike to a LBS, complaining of sloppy gear changes and they corrected the slightly bent gear hanger.

I've put the whole thing down to experience.

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foxyrider
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby foxyrider » 11 Jan 2017, 10:37am

Some good advice but also a lot of jumping to conclusions.

Just because a bike was bought mail order does not mean it hasn't been set up before shipping - in fact I would expect any supplier doing MO on BTW would have checked it was all working before despatched. Further, the bike should have been safety checked before this point - was it or did the OP take the line that he hadn't ridden much it didn't need it yet. All bikes have a degree of settling in from new, it is not distance related! Even just a ride around the block can stretch cables and affect performance of gears/brakes.

The biggest problem with BTW IME (I've supplied bikes under the scheme since its inception) is that a large percentage of 'buyers' are novices - often ignoring advice on bike choice, selecting the most expensive option whether suitable or not (how can a full süß MTB be suitable for an urban commute?) Broken chains and accompanying gear frame damage is a regular 'complaint' which under 'interrogation' is almost always caused by user error - that does not make the bike or component 'not fit for purpose'.

The OP has stated an uphill gear change which by default puts the system under stress, I can almost guarantee the failure was precipitated by inadvisable gear changing not a faulty chain. Of course we no longer have access to the chain to prove it either way. The LBS may be covering all the angles by suggesting mech and hanger replacement - it's easy to get a big bill on stuff like this, check their hourly rate, could be forty quid but also check what the quote actually covers. There might be a set up/service charge in there.

My personal view is that the bike has/had no fault and the breakage etc was due to user error. I would however expect the supplier to arrange sorting it out at cost or FOC as a matter of goodwill. OP hasn't indicated where it came from so we don't know if they have a B&M shop.

I suppose the moral of this tale is to not buy bicycles mail order, use a trusted LBS you can have a face to face relationship with. If you do (for reasons of availability for eg) buy MO get the machine checked fully before use. Even I would take it to a shop for this and I've been building bikes and maintaining them for 40 years. I check it over its all down to me, shop checks it and it's their responsibility - essential for warranty unless you happen to have full mechanic certification.

Think carefully before going through the courts, it certainly will do nothing to improve relations with the supplier and could leave you further out of pocket.
Convention? what's that then?
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pete75
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby pete75 » 11 Jan 2017, 10:37am

531colin wrote:A competent bookeeper told me that its dead simple to operate a "salary sacrifice scheme" where the employer keeps control of the money, you don't need any of these commercial outfits to shuffle some paper and take a huge slice of the pie, all you need is a competent bookeeper and the company to have the will to take responsibility for doing the job.


The employer still has to set up the salary sacrifice for the employee on their payroll system. It is quick and simple to do.

It beats me what these companies do other than send out a voucher to the employee, invoice company for the same and send out a hire agreement to the employee. The employer has to handle the correspondence regarding the salary sacrifice. All they do is avoid the company having to directly purchase the bike. They make things a bit easier for the company at no cost to them with the charge being put onto the supplier. What they charge is exorbitant for this service.

I got bike to work through cycle to work but not using a scheme. The bike was quickly and easily bought from the suppliers website using the companies bank card.

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531colin
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby 531colin » 11 Jan 2017, 10:51am

It was early and I was a bit miserable when I was writing that. OP says he has a bent hanger and R. mech., so i guess he has derailler gears......I was losing the will to live trying to read Cube website. Somebody else said its 10 speed.
The cycle to work scheme comes up often enough on here that you could find out quite a lot about it if you wanted.....or at least you could get a lot of opinions, which may not be quite the same thing! From working in a retailers, I formed the opinion that the scheme (as generally operated by outside commercial interests) wasn't really in the bike retailers' best interests.
I wonder what proportion of bike related stuff is bought on line now, and I wonder who will be fixing it all in 5 or 10 years time.
Its probably a fairly easy sales job to sell the various cycle to work schemes to employers.....gives employees a tax "benefit", costs the employer nothing.....operating a scheme pays a damned sight better than repairing bikes.
Of course, it was set up as a scheme to benefit the health of the nation ....... I wonder how its success in doing that is measured?

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mjr
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby mjr » 11 Jan 2017, 10:55am

SeanMcN wrote:<200 miles on road cant be wear and tear to a chain can it?

It depends how rough you are with it, but it shouldn't be IMO.

But I agree with PH:
PH wrote:Yes you might have a case, no I wouldn't peruse it.
There's lots of reasons a chain might have come of and caused the damage, some of them the responsibility of the supplier, the others not. I can't see how you'd be able to demonstrate which it was.
If it needs it, buy your own mech and hanger, maybe learn how to fit it yourself, write it off to experience and get back out cycling.

If SeanMcN can give us a hint at his rough area, there might be someone who can suggest a trusty Local Bike Shop or a club who has a Dr Bike who could help you to DIY. Fitting one's own rear mech and hanger isn't difficult, although setting the indexed shifting again afterwards can be fiddly and time-consuming.
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby PH » 11 Jan 2017, 11:35am

531colin wrote:I wonder what proportion of bike related stuff is bought on line now, and I wonder who will be fixing it all in 5 or 10 years time.

Round my way, two traditional LBSs relying on sales have closed in the last couple of years and three new businesses have opened specialising in servicing and repairs. I’ve seen advertising from two of those offering a set up service for a bike purchased online. From what I’ve seen all three are offering better repair service than the closed bike shops did, One is tied in with the city centre bike parking scheme and the other two will collect/deliver your bike to home or workplace.
Retail has changed and of course there’s winners and losers, across both businesses and consumers, not wanting to sound selfish, but I don’t think I’ve lost anything. I’ll support businesses that offer me what I want and one of those things is the best value (Which isn’t necessarily the cheapest price) Increasingly that’s been found online rather than on the High St.

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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby Flinders » 11 Jan 2017, 7:11pm

Samuel D wrote:
Flinders wrote:My point, though, is this- my chain is a fairly thin, delicate one - much more so than the ones on pics of your type of bike appear to be…

SeanMcN’s bicycle seems to be 10-speed, no? That would have an even narrower chain than your 9-speed set-up.

None of these chains take well to the lateral forces caused by unsympathetic front shifting uphill. Lennard Zinn seems to think front shifting weakens the chain even when done properly.

And 10-speed systems are particularly fussy to set up, not that that should have prevented the shop from doing so (but maybe they did – we just can’t know).


Mine is, as I said earlier in the post, 9x3, i.e., 27 speed road bike. Much thinner chain than my old 10 speed tourer.

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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby Flinders » 11 Jan 2017, 7:19pm

Hving thought about it, I have a couple of suggestions.

First, was the chain lubricated? It may have been set up for you, but they may not have lubricated it. You need to lubricate the chain, and other parts. If you haven't, that may be a contributory factor. Sorry if I seem to be suggesting the obvious, but I have known people not be aware that a chain needs lubricating. And an online retialer may not want to ubricate a bike in transit.

Second, do you know anyone who knows about materials? the chain may have had a problem with one of the links or whatever being unsound from the start, someone knowledgeable can often tell how and why a piece of metal has broken just by looking at the break - whether it is fatigue or whatever. That may indicate whether the chain was faulty.

Also, as others have said, there is a technique to changing gear with a derailleur- you have to take the pressure off the pedals whilst still turning them. It's often going up hills where this is most difficult, when you have stuck in a high gear too long and are having to exert a lot of pressure just to keep going enough to stay upright. Hence experienced cyclists tend to change earlier, before they are struggling to turn the pedals.

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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby SpannerGeek » 12 Jan 2017, 8:36am

We had the same trouble with an online purchase from Halfords. Basically the wheels were gash, imo worth about £20 the pair. As it was a work colleague I said I'd go with him into the store.

'Sorry, don't warranty wheels.'

’I have the original online warranty here: components 1 year warranty'

'Have you had the bike serviced here?'

'No, we bought it online'

'Sorry can't warranty wheels that haven't been regularly serviced'.

It went on like this for 5 months. Countless emails and calls. Eventually they replaced the rear wheel with the same very low quality wheel.


I don't think you have a case with this one. Motto of the story is, buy your bike from a reputable local bike shop. If you buy online and anything goes wrong, they'll have a get out clause (as Halfords did 'regular servicing') and you're on your own.

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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby PH » 12 Jan 2017, 8:54am

Flinders wrote:First, was the chain lubricated?

It probably was - every new chain I've ever had has come pre lubricated. Have you had one that isn't? Unless someone has one of those obsessive chain maintenance routines, that's probably the best it'll be lubricated in it's lifetime. Unless used in adverse conditions it ought to be good for a couple of hundred miles.

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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby Psamathe » 12 Jan 2017, 9:50am

PH wrote:
Flinders wrote:First, was the chain lubricated?

It probably was - every new chain I've ever had has come pre lubricated. Have you had one that isn't? Unless someone has one of those obsessive chain maintenance routines, that's probably the best it'll be lubricated in it's lifetime. Unless used in adverse conditions it ought to be good for a couple of hundred miles.

I understood (i.e. was told by a LBS - so only repeating as I don't have the knowledge or experience) that the pre-lubrication on a new chain would not last well or for long. When I recently has loads of work done at a different LBS they also fitted a new chain (to go with the new cassette and new chainwheels) and they added chain lube to it (as in from a bottle whilst turning chain, etc.). But I must emphasise I' just repeating what I've seen/been told and am not asserting any knowledge.

Ian

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mjr
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Re: Do You Think I have a Case...

Postby mjr » 12 Jan 2017, 10:05am

PH wrote:
Flinders wrote:First, was the chain lubricated?

It probably was - every new chain I've ever had has come pre lubricated. Have you had one that isn't? Unless someone has one of those obsessive chain maintenance routines, that's probably the best it'll be lubricated in it's lifetime. Unless used in adverse conditions it ought to be good for a couple of hundred miles.

That said, I did see a Shimano chain last year where maybe the factory lubricant reacted with whatever residual lubricant had been on the drive train and produced an effect very similar to stiff links within 50 miles. If the skipping had been ignored, I guess that could have snapped and/or trashed the rear mech, but the bike finished its journey in a recovery vehicle and the chain was replaced - the replacement worked fine. As far as I know, the person who fitted the chain never figured out what happened there and wrote it off as a freak fault, but maybe there was a bad batch.
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