Diesel scrappage

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squeaker
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby squeaker » 22 Oct 2017, 9:18am

Bonefishblues wrote:I'm not disagreeing, but the whole testing regime will need a complete overhaul to be more in line with the type of testing done by the Stokenchurch outfit that tested the cars in the article - and robustly replicable in a way that theirs isn't*.

...and even then, manufacturers would, of course, develop to meet that test in particular, just as they have this one.

*I'm not saying it's inaccurate, rather that if billions of squids are riding on it, it simply has to be demonstrably fair and equal to all, otherwise we'd end up in a litigation-fest.
Exactly. Emission Analytics has done a solid job on both real world fuel consumption and gaseous emissions to the point that legislators can no longer stick their heads in the sand, but robust test regimes take a while to devise, let alone get into legislation.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Oct 2017, 10:04am

Bonefishblues wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Yet it is accepted?

There is a simple answer .... ban all the Qashqais and others that are known to be over the limit from Cities and urban areas

They are legal. They passed the test. There are no grounds.

Again, it's a flawed testing regime.



The testing is the issue.

I wonder if there are grounds for an objection, or even legal challenge by one of the environmental groups.

There is sufficient evidence that these new vehicles do not meet the legal requirement for exemption
Last edited by Cunobelin on 22 Oct 2017, 10:05am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby Vorpal » 22 Oct 2017, 10:13am

I would think that given there is obvious evidence that a much better approach is available, there will be grounds for a legal challenge if the EU doesn't do something about it. It does take time to get stuff through the bureaucracy, but there were already test changes in committee.

The ideal thing would be to allow for random checks; and set parameters according to usage profiles or something (percentage in particular speed ranges, city / rural / motorway driving, etc.) The data are all available from the computers on the vehicles. It may take legislation to make manufacturers give access to it.
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Mick F
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby Mick F » 22 Oct 2017, 10:22am

Wouldn't it be good that when we leave the EU, the UK brings in a real-world testing regime for vehicles?

All these Euro6 vehicles that exceed the UK emissions regulations would be off the road, even if the EU says they are ok.
I think that the US already do this.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Oct 2017, 10:35am

The problem is testing though

The article I linked earlier suggests that for a full independent test of a vehicle to truly assess the pollution

No-one will give precise figures but it's somewhere between £3,000 and £10,000 per car.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Oct 2017, 10:38am

Wouldn't it be brilliant if there was a "sock test"

Place a white sock over the tailpipe

Run the car

Take off sock and compare to a colour scale

Simple pass or fail

And all for the cost of a pair of white socks


..... and as there is a pair of socks you can offer a BOGOF on the tests

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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby Mark R » 22 Oct 2017, 10:41am

A big part of the problem is the constant lobbying of the car manufacturers. There is no profit in fitting better emissions control tech so they go to great lengths to subvert clean air legislation and ensure loopholes remain in place.

Examples of this would be:

The recent successful lobbying for EURO6 diesels to emit double the original threshold for NO2 aka the 'compliance factor'

The loopholes which allow the EGR circuit to be deactivated when the ambient temperature is below a certain value (10deg?) supposedly to 'protect the engine' cough

The EU manufacturers are desperate, china doesn't want their diesels; North America isn't interested either, so the European market is the last stand. If their products have to become more expensive becuase of the need for better emissions control tech (or have ADBlue tanks which have to filled up a bit too often) it will be another nail in the coffin. They are basically playing for time at the expensive of public health.

The Germans and Brits want to keep selling their awful ****panzers but without the diesel option they would miss the CO2 targets by a mile and face huge fines. They could just stop making such gratuitously massive vehicles...but where is the profit in that?

**The scoundrels also successfully lobbied against mandatory fitment of particulate traps for DI petrols

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squeaker
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby squeaker » 22 Oct 2017, 11:10am

Cunobelin wrote:Wouldn't it be brilliant if there was a "sock test"

Place a white sock over the tailpipe

Run the car

Take off sock and compare to a colour scale

Simple pass or fail

And all for the cost of a pair of white socks


..... and as there is a pair of socks you can offer a BOGOF on the tests
Bosch smoke number test (those Germans!) used filter papers and, you guessed it, a Boasch smoke pump to sample the exhaust. UK MOT test does something similar using optical sensors on the exhaust stream. However, as MarkR keeps pointing out, if you can't see it, it doesn't mean it's OK to breath :roll:
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby Psamathe » 22 Oct 2017, 12:00pm

Mick F wrote:Wouldn't it be good that when we leave the EU, the UK brings in a real-world testing regime for vehicles?
....

But do you think it will happen. Or is it more likely UK will relax regulations to get some trade deal with some country that is even worse pollution wise than the UK. Just look at the inaction from the UK Gov. over the air quality issue, how the EU is having to threaten fines and court action and still the UK Gov. is dragging its feet - can you see us suddenly introducing stricter "real-world" testing?

Ian

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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby old_windbag » 22 Oct 2017, 12:15pm

I find it surprising that people would think that leaving the EU will mean the UK will set standards higher than those already. The EU has brought in many rules/regs that have applied to us that we would likely never had in a month of sundays.

The car manufacturers may find loopholes in legislation to benefit themselves( or make design a little easier and less costly ) but is that not human nature. I'm sure many reading these posts have twisted rules to get something for themselves. Then look at all the false ppi claims and obligatory whiplash claims from piddling impacts. Car manufacturers work to the same rules/morals as everyday people in uk society do.

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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Oct 2017, 12:29pm

old_windbag wrote:... Car manufacturers work to the same rules/morals as everyday people in uk society do.


Speaking as an everyday sort of person, I find that a rather unfair description of my personal standards.

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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby reohn2 » 22 Oct 2017, 12:35pm

bigjim wrote:Isn't the idea of these scrappage schemes just shifting the pollution from our back yard into somebody else's. Plus creating more pollution. Wherever these new vehicles are made their pollution levels will go up. The scrapped vehicles will have to be transported, then broken down, the metal then resmelted to make new metal for the new vehicles. All sounds pretty polluting to me.

But it keeps capitalism bouyant and sells "stuff" to people who don't need such "stuff" rather than repairing and servicing their present "stuff".
In short its a con that serves the small minority of people who really do need the "stuff" being peddled.
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old_windbag
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby old_windbag » 22 Oct 2017, 12:38pm

TC, my morals and your morals may both be set at quite a high level....... but rest assured the general population of the UK does not reflect that. If it did we'd have hardly any benefit claimants, disability claims and so on. The mindset of people in large companies to seek loophole is not different to the individual figuring how they can get a little extra cash buy using the tax system "efficiently" or altering circumstances to claim a financial amount.

Edit: Another aspect to this is that when an individual is told that their car has higher emissions, or pollutes more than they thought it did, how many would lock it up in the garage and stop using it. They wouldn't and they'd say they were mis-sold that vehicle and should be compensated, meanwhile happy to use it knowing it's higher emissions. There is more to peoples decision making in buying a car than it's emissions, they aren't at the top of the table otherwise nearly everyone would be driving smaller cars with higher mpg and in the zero ved category and using them less.

Too many vehicles in too small a space. The cost of overpopulation and easy car ownership......... the pollution is just a by product with cars now cleaner than they ever were.
Last edited by old_windbag on 22 Oct 2017, 1:36pm, edited 1 time in total.

thirdcrank
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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Oct 2017, 1:35pm

old_windbag wrote:TC, my morals and your morals may both be set at quite a high level....... but rest assured the general population of the UK does not reflect that. If it did we'd have hardly any benefit claimants, disability claims and so on. The mindset of people in large companies to seek loophole is not different to the individual figuring how they can get a little extra cash buy using the tax system "efficiently" or altering circumstances to claim a financial amount.


My earlier post was a bit tongue-in-cheek although my underlying point was serious: the motor trade is built on selling dreams (and substantial commissions are paid to successful sales people.)

To suggest that the great majority of benefits claimants and those claiming to be disabled are dishonest is, frankly, repugnant. eg It seems to be pretty widely accepted that a lot of benefits go unclaimed for one reason are another. Of course, there are plenty of dishonest people and I'd be the last to suggest otherwise, but to imply that dishonesty and disability are almost synonymous is abhorrent.

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Re: Diesel scrappage

Postby old_windbag » 22 Oct 2017, 1:43pm

thirdcrank wrote:but to imply that dishonesty and disability are almost synonymous is abhorrent.


I haven't suggested that, I'm saying that people look at the rules in front of them to get various financial amounts then work to get the most they can. There are those who take that to extremes just as the super rich and the tax rules, but there are also those who just do it enough to get that little extra that they may not really be entitled to. Perhaps that is one aspect of life, I'm entitled to it therefore I should take it.

I know many as friends who I have to bite my tongue when I hear of the things they claim, yet I as the observer know all too well that they are not in need of such....... but they do too :( .