Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

esuhl
Posts: 115
Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 3:20am

Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby esuhl » 21 Mar 2018, 8:04pm

I just came across a government survey regarding current policies for cycling and walking, and what could be done to make cyclists and/or pedestrians safer. The survey is open until 1 June 2018.

https://www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/CWIS-SAFETY/

There's full details of the survey, current policy, and the reasoning behind it here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... r-evidence

I thought there might be a few of us here with some valuable opinions for "them in charge" to read... :wink:

(Apologies if this is mentioned elsewhere -- I had a search but couldn't find anything.)

User avatar
craigbroadbent
Posts: 48
Joined: 10 Aug 2017, 8:26am

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby craigbroadbent » 22 Mar 2018, 10:08am

I suggested all new pedelecs should have lights fitted as standard.

This would help people who are forgetful like me.

It should be cheaper than fitting to normal bikes as the battery is already there, and a small part of the full cost. Perhaps the govt could chip in too, by reducing tax taken.

With LED tech, the lights should last the lifetime of the vehicle, and if integrated to frame then not so easy to steal.

I heard the French have something similar for pedelecs.

esuhl
Posts: 115
Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 3:20am

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby esuhl » 22 Mar 2018, 10:39pm

I think the tricky thing with integrated lights is that there are so many different types for so many different situations. But for bikes that are only going to be used as "commuter bikes", it's a good idea.

I was more concerned with schools' attitudes to cycling, driver awareness of cyclists' safety (i.e. the reason for taking the lane at junctions, on multi-lane roads, etc.), the lack of safe infrastructure, and a policing and justice system that so often fails to prosecute demonstrably dangerous drivers.

User avatar
craigbroadbent
Posts: 48
Joined: 10 Aug 2017, 8:26am

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby craigbroadbent » 23 Mar 2018, 9:50am

the tricky thing with integrated lights is that there are so many different types for so many different situations.


I was thinking a dipped beam at front and a standard red to the rear with similar spec to cars as a starting point.

As most commuters in the UK have to go on the roads, it is really necessary for them to be similarly lit. 28% of fatalities in UK are after dark.

AlaninWales
Posts: 1540
Joined: 26 Oct 2012, 1:47pm

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby AlaninWales » 23 Mar 2018, 10:36am

One simple and massively effective action would be to stop putting cyclists on pavements, which is safe for neither cyclists nor pedestrians. Either properly designed, constructed and maintained segregated cycle paths or on the roads with properly constrained motor vehicular speeds.

User avatar
Wanlock Dod
Posts: 506
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby Wanlock Dod » 23 Mar 2018, 9:00pm

craigbroadbent wrote:...28% of fatalities in UK are after dark.

I don't see much evidence that it is a lack of adequate lighting on bikes that is causing these fatalities though, do you have any evidence to support the assertion that more lights could be an important factor in cyclist safety? It seems rather at odds with what seems to happen in places where cycling is genuinely safe.

esuhl
Posts: 115
Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 3:20am

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby esuhl » 23 Mar 2018, 11:16pm

AlaninWales wrote:One simple and massively effective action would be to stop putting cyclists on pavements, which is safe for neither cyclists nor pedestrians. Either properly designed, constructed and maintained segregated cycle paths or on the roads with properly constrained motor vehicular speeds.


Definitely worth mentioning that in the survey if you haven't already completed it! :-)

A couple of other points that I wish I'd made (but didn't) are:

On-street car-parking often causes congestion and makes it hard for drivers to spot cyclists and pedestrians. It's also hard to spot cars emerging from side roads. Eliminating road-side parking where it is dangerous, impedes traffic, or where alternative parking facilities exist would be a good idea.

Also (thanks to the other thread on subsidising motorists), I think it would help if motorists where aware how much is spent on maintaining roads, how much damage cars cause vs. bikes (e.g. potholes), and where that money comes from. It might help get rid of the "you don't pay road tax, so get off the road" mentality.

Finally, 20 mph zones should give default priority to pedestrians and cyclists , like the Dutch "cars are guests" zones. And they should either have traffic-calming measures, or have no through access for 4-wheeled vehicles to prevent rat-running.

The government have been making a mess of cycling infrastructure for years. I don't think anyone making decisions has ever ridden a bike! So I hope lots of cyclists complete the survey. :D

User avatar
Pastychomper
Posts: 317
Joined: 14 Nov 2017, 11:14am
Location: Caithness

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby Pastychomper » 26 Mar 2018, 1:25pm

Some good points here. I suggested that every able-bodied person who wants to obtain a licence to drive a car should be required to spend a minimum time travelling on roads by muscle power. I've thought for years, nay decades, that such a requirement would improve a lot of attitudes, not to mention the extra highway practice for future motons.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then.
--Ole Boot

drossall
Posts: 4614
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby drossall » 26 Mar 2018, 8:26pm

craigbroadbent wrote:28% of fatalities in UK are after dark.

I believe I'm right in saying that police reports suggest that the number of those accidents where lack of lights was a factor is very low, leading to a conclusion that it is lit cyclists who are disproportionately represented in the casualties.

This is quite hard to explain. The best I can come up with is that most cycling is around town, and quite often street lighting will show up a cyclist anyway. This leads to motorists spotting the unlit cyclists and getting annoyed by them, which in turn achieves the key thing for cycle safety, which is a reaction to the cyclist's presence.

However, I won't be riding without lights anytime soon.

reohn2
Posts: 36679
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby reohn2 » 26 Mar 2018, 8:36pm

drossall wrote:
craigbroadbent wrote:28% of fatalities in UK are after dark.

I believe I'm right in saying that police reports suggest that the number of those accidents where lack of lights was a factor is very low, leading to a conclusion that it is lit cyclists who are disproportionately represented in the casualties.

This is quite hard to explain. The best I can come up with is that most cycling is around town, and quite often street lighting will show up a cyclist anyway. This leads to motorists spotting the unlit cyclists and getting annoyed by them, which in turn achieves the key thing for cycle safety, which is a reaction to the cyclist's presence.

However, I won't be riding without lights anytime soon.

Or it could simply be that unlit cyclists form a small pecentage of all cyclists riding at night,and that a significant proportion of motorists don't notice either lit or unlit cyclist equally because they don't pay enough interest in safe driving practice.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

drossall
Posts: 4614
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby drossall » 26 Mar 2018, 8:51pm

reohn2 wrote:Or it could simply be that unlit cyclists form a small pecentage of all cyclists riding at night..

Yes, but that would demolish all the stuff about ninja cyclists, and put the percentage unlit below any estimate that I've ever seen anyone offer.

reohn2
Posts: 36679
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby reohn2 » 26 Mar 2018, 10:12pm

drossall wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Or it could simply be that unlit cyclists form a small pecentage of all cyclists riding at night..

Yes, but that would demolish all the stuff about ninja cyclists, and put the percentage unlit below any estimate that I've ever seen anyone offer.

What are the estimates of lit to unlit cyclists?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

drossall
Posts: 4614
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby drossall » 26 Mar 2018, 10:27pm

We're taking this rather off topic. I don't think there are any official, published estimates. My point was rather more general - talk is as though unlit cyclists are in the majority. If you don't agree, that's fine.

reohn2
Posts: 36679
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby reohn2 » 26 Mar 2018, 10:31pm

drossall wrote:We're taking this rather off topic. I don't think there are any official, published estimates. My point was rather more general - talk is as though unlit cyclists are in the majority. If you don't agree, that's fine.

TBH I don't know any figures.
I was just offering a different way of looking at the reason for 28% figure of after dark fatalities.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
craigbroadbent
Posts: 48
Joined: 10 Aug 2017, 8:26am

Re: Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy safety review: call for evidence

Postby craigbroadbent » 27 Mar 2018, 8:06am

Cyclist wearing dark clothes at night was identified as a key reason in 10% of fatal accidents.
And 5% would have been avoided if the bike had good lights on.

Reference
Transport Research Laboratory. Collisions involving pedal cyclists on Britain’s roads: establishing the causes October 2009