Hopefully someone will carry out a direct comparison in due course.
(It will be interesting to see how much 'real world' difference the changes make. I suspect the growing Ebike market may be one reason why Shimano have made the improvements.)
Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
I had the Alfine SG-S700-11 for a number of years and used it for daily commuting (10 miles per day)and weekly road rides of up to 25 miles. It was very reliable but its weakness was (well documented problem) a slow release of oil from the drive side that I would clean up every month or so; the chain guard could slip out of its retaining groove and move towards the chain (not really a problem but some early adapters wrongly thought that this may have helped oil leaks); and 2nd gear felt "soft" and would occasionally slip or would not shift away from or into that gear (this was only ever a problem on very steep climbs). The latter problem pretty much went away over time (though still felt mushy) and was not corrected by any cable adjustment or cleaning of the cassette joint. The specified oil was always changed more frequently then the recommended intervals and was always clean without having any visible metallic bits.
I have since replaced it with the SG-7001-11 and this time, no oil leaks at all, a very occasional slip in 9th gear which has gone away completely after the first oil change and the bottom gears feel more positive without any mushy feelings. Overall the later version is an improvement from my experience. Shimano states that..."Improved internal structure for better gear engagement, smoother shifting performance, improved performance for both E-bike and non-E-bike usage". The older version is on offer for some bargain prices (SJS) and I suspect that Shimano were incrementally improving the quality control before moving to the later version as plenty of people seemed to have no problems.
I have since replaced it with the SG-7001-11 and this time, no oil leaks at all, a very occasional slip in 9th gear which has gone away completely after the first oil change and the bottom gears feel more positive without any mushy feelings. Overall the later version is an improvement from my experience. Shimano states that..."Improved internal structure for better gear engagement, smoother shifting performance, improved performance for both E-bike and non-E-bike usage". The older version is on offer for some bargain prices (SJS) and I suspect that Shimano were incrementally improving the quality control before moving to the later version as plenty of people seemed to have no problems.
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Hi Lesoudeur,
Am I assuming correctly that the two Alfine 11s you've ridden were both set-up to perfect yellow lines alignment in 6th gear? Was the cable length done by the book as well (184mm from the ferrule-exit to cable-nut as described in the service manual: http://www.koga-signature.com/docs/Maintenance-Manual.pdf )?
If that is so, with the old S700 hub, your experience matches mine and others to the tee. The simple solution there is to apply further tension to the cable from the shifter so that the upper-yellow-line has just about passed the lower-yellow-line, or even a bit further (as you're looking at the shifting mechanism from the drive-side). The lower gears feel firm and solid, (including 2nd!), no skipping whatsoever. However, I would like to get a feel on how the newer 7001-11 performs: sounds like the S700 that should have always been! Shame on Shimano for moving the QA costs on the customer; it is clear to me now, they refined the hub's internals as they were reviewing broken-up hubs send back from around the world. They have no excuses and in typical japanese omerta fashion, they just go along as if everything is alright when in fact they should be replacing _all_ S700s on their expense for they used the customer's time to refine a flawed ~400$ product.
Am I assuming correctly that the two Alfine 11s you've ridden were both set-up to perfect yellow lines alignment in 6th gear? Was the cable length done by the book as well (184mm from the ferrule-exit to cable-nut as described in the service manual: http://www.koga-signature.com/docs/Maintenance-Manual.pdf )?
If that is so, with the old S700 hub, your experience matches mine and others to the tee. The simple solution there is to apply further tension to the cable from the shifter so that the upper-yellow-line has just about passed the lower-yellow-line, or even a bit further (as you're looking at the shifting mechanism from the drive-side). The lower gears feel firm and solid, (including 2nd!), no skipping whatsoever. However, I would like to get a feel on how the newer 7001-11 performs: sounds like the S700 that should have always been! Shame on Shimano for moving the QA costs on the customer; it is clear to me now, they refined the hub's internals as they were reviewing broken-up hubs send back from around the world. They have no excuses and in typical japanese omerta fashion, they just go along as if everything is alright when in fact they should be replacing _all_ S700s on their expense for they used the customer's time to refine a flawed ~400$ product.
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Yes, both have been set up with the 6th gear alignment. With the older version I did experiment with moving the alignment (in fact both ways) as many people seemed to be having improvements (such as yourself). Maybe I did not persevere enough to be successful so reverted to the recommended alignment and as I reported, the problem only really showed up on really steep hills and finally pretty much disappeared over time...except for the mushy feeling in 2nd.
The new 7001-11 felt right from the start, however on the first oil change (around 400miles) the oil had more suspended fine debris than what I remember the older one had. Whether this reflects on closer tolerances I do not know (I hope so). I have also noticed that the wheel seems to spin more smoothly on the 7001-11 though this may be the cone setting tightness. I have replaced the cone lock nuts on the 7001-11 with titanium versions from a titanium upgrade kit (that replaces the non turn washers and cap nuts etc with titanium parts) but was careful not to disturb the cone tightness with the bearings. In relation to the improved oil tightness of the 7001-11, maybe I have been lucky enough to get a good one or Shimano has improved (or has been improving) the quality of the seals/dust caps as they have the same parts numbers as the older model. There are only 6 non-interchangeable parts from the older model but that includes sun gears 2 and 4, hub axle unit and clutch unit. Obviously Shimano have had to up their game with their hubs to gain traction in the e-bike market and conversions to belt drive. The Shimano 11 speed is now the only model (AFAIK) in production between 8 and 14 speed hub gears.
The new 7001-11 felt right from the start, however on the first oil change (around 400miles) the oil had more suspended fine debris than what I remember the older one had. Whether this reflects on closer tolerances I do not know (I hope so). I have also noticed that the wheel seems to spin more smoothly on the 7001-11 though this may be the cone setting tightness. I have replaced the cone lock nuts on the 7001-11 with titanium versions from a titanium upgrade kit (that replaces the non turn washers and cap nuts etc with titanium parts) but was careful not to disturb the cone tightness with the bearings. In relation to the improved oil tightness of the 7001-11, maybe I have been lucky enough to get a good one or Shimano has improved (or has been improving) the quality of the seals/dust caps as they have the same parts numbers as the older model. There are only 6 non-interchangeable parts from the older model but that includes sun gears 2 and 4, hub axle unit and clutch unit. Obviously Shimano have had to up their game with their hubs to gain traction in the e-bike market and conversions to belt drive. The Shimano 11 speed is now the only model (AFAIK) in production between 8 and 14 speed hub gears.
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
spinning the wheel and seeing how freely it moves may tell you a little bit about the bearings but it mostly tells you about the seal drag and (depending on what is going on inside the hub) the amount of drag arising from the roller clutches. The latter are preloaded and it seemed to me that the preload was enough for a grease-filled hub even though it is an oil-filled hub. They may have revised these parts under the same part number, and gained lower drag that way.
Debris in the oil arises from lack of cleaning in the new parts or from wear. In the latter case the wear debris will persist in later oil changes and in the former case it won't. There is one place where wear will occur and that is in the thrust ring on the axle that reacts the thrust load from the helical gear stage. IIRC this sees load in gears 1-6. If you want to find any wear debris more easily, I'd suggest using a magnetic drain plug or similar.
It seems to me that there is scope for a lubricant with better EP additives/solid lubricants in this hub; having tried such lubricants I can report that the roller clutches do not slip if the additive content is kept to a sensible proportion. However the improved lubricant may help to protect the thrust ring from wear.
cheers
Debris in the oil arises from lack of cleaning in the new parts or from wear. In the latter case the wear debris will persist in later oil changes and in the former case it won't. There is one place where wear will occur and that is in the thrust ring on the axle that reacts the thrust load from the helical gear stage. IIRC this sees load in gears 1-6. If you want to find any wear debris more easily, I'd suggest using a magnetic drain plug or similar.
It seems to me that there is scope for a lubricant with better EP additives/solid lubricants in this hub; having tried such lubricants I can report that the roller clutches do not slip if the additive content is kept to a sensible proportion. However the improved lubricant may help to protect the thrust ring from wear.
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Hello to everybody. Please excuse my poor English, i am from Germany.
I own two A11 (old version i.e. SG-S700) which are both far from trouble-free. I am not an expert, but i do spend lots of hours on things which don't work as i expect...
Thanks to this forum i got ready to strip down the unit(s) and i think i learned a lot. I would now like to share this with you. I compiled a little report (it accumulated to a 33 page .pdf with lots of pictures) which i would like to feed here. Actually, the board does not let me upload it (.pdf is an invalid extension :-[ ) Perhaps - if somebody is interested, you can guide me on how to still do it? Some online storage which can then be referenced here would also be fine, but i do not personally have any. Attempting to awake your couriosity, here is the "first page" of my "book":
About a possible weakness in the design of Shimano Alfine 11 IGH (SG-S700)
This book is about one possible cause for repeated gears slipping and for knocking
noises inside this hub. Investigation took me to stripping down of the unit, including
axle unit. As i did not find detailed procedures regarding the axle unit, i prepared one
wich i hereby, along with originally intended analysis results, share with everybody
who may be interested. So, this book actually is about many more “secrets” of this
hub, though i must make clear that i am not really an expert. (I did, though, strip
down my 1973 Fiat 600 gearbox incl. Hypoid completely to replace a broken bearing
in the farthest corner of the thing – and got it together, adjusted and working
entirely... some 20 years ago.)
Please excuse my poor English, i am from Germany.
Prost,
vanGoose
Contents
Preface 2
First test runs 2
Strip-down the non-driven side and inspecting hub internals 4
Strip down the driven side – part 1 5
More thoroughly inspecting the hub internals 9
Description of the inner circuit 11
Shifting up an A11 12
Shifting down an A11 13
Assisted down-shifting with an A11 14
Supposed cause of failure of my hub and plan of action to repair 16
Strip down the driven side – part 2 17
Re-building the axle unit from scratch 18
Re-build the remaining parts on the driven side 28
The other unit 33
33 pages - too much to insert here by hand... This is not an ad, it is not meant to be useless, i just hope to share some information with you which may be helpful.
The story is not over yet. Lacking more playing time i have not completed my works by today and i will have to pause it for some weeks. But i simply could not wait to "tell the world".
The .pdf is some 3.5MB in size. Though the pictueres therein are pretty good, i can also deliver the pictures in original resolution in a .zip file sized @9MB.
Your comments welcome.
Best regards
vanGoose
I own two A11 (old version i.e. SG-S700) which are both far from trouble-free. I am not an expert, but i do spend lots of hours on things which don't work as i expect...
Thanks to this forum i got ready to strip down the unit(s) and i think i learned a lot. I would now like to share this with you. I compiled a little report (it accumulated to a 33 page .pdf with lots of pictures) which i would like to feed here. Actually, the board does not let me upload it (.pdf is an invalid extension :-[ ) Perhaps - if somebody is interested, you can guide me on how to still do it? Some online storage which can then be referenced here would also be fine, but i do not personally have any. Attempting to awake your couriosity, here is the "first page" of my "book":
About a possible weakness in the design of Shimano Alfine 11 IGH (SG-S700)
This book is about one possible cause for repeated gears slipping and for knocking
noises inside this hub. Investigation took me to stripping down of the unit, including
axle unit. As i did not find detailed procedures regarding the axle unit, i prepared one
wich i hereby, along with originally intended analysis results, share with everybody
who may be interested. So, this book actually is about many more “secrets” of this
hub, though i must make clear that i am not really an expert. (I did, though, strip
down my 1973 Fiat 600 gearbox incl. Hypoid completely to replace a broken bearing
in the farthest corner of the thing – and got it together, adjusted and working
entirely... some 20 years ago.)
Please excuse my poor English, i am from Germany.
Prost,
vanGoose
Contents
Preface 2
First test runs 2
Strip-down the non-driven side and inspecting hub internals 4
Strip down the driven side – part 1 5
More thoroughly inspecting the hub internals 9
Description of the inner circuit 11
Shifting up an A11 12
Shifting down an A11 13
Assisted down-shifting with an A11 14
Supposed cause of failure of my hub and plan of action to repair 16
Strip down the driven side – part 2 17
Re-building the axle unit from scratch 18
Re-build the remaining parts on the driven side 28
The other unit 33
33 pages - too much to insert here by hand... This is not an ad, it is not meant to be useless, i just hope to share some information with you which may be helpful.
The story is not over yet. Lacking more playing time i have not completed my works by today and i will have to pause it for some weeks. But i simply could not wait to "tell the world".
The .pdf is some 3.5MB in size. Though the pictueres therein are pretty good, i can also deliver the pictures in original resolution in a .zip file sized @9MB.
Your comments welcome.
Best regards
vanGoose
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
A shared Dropbox folder can be a good way to share binary data, and then you can just provide a link.
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Right - why not go the easy way (i just was wondering if the board provides such tasks internally)... so THIS is your link:
https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw
This shared folder contains the .pdf "book" and the picture collection (zipped). You will have to live with the situation that the site talks German... The share is valid until 2018-04-17. Enjoy - comments welcome. No copyrights - share as you like.
https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw
This shared folder contains the .pdf "book" and the picture collection (zipped). You will have to live with the situation that the site talks German... The share is valid until 2018-04-17. Enjoy - comments welcome. No copyrights - share as you like.
Best regards
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
vanGoose wrote:Right - why not go the easy way (i just was wondering if the board provides such tasks internally)... so THIS is your link:
https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw
This shared folder contains the .pdf "book" and the picture collection (zipped). You will have to live with the situation that the site talks German... The share is valid until 2018-04-17. Enjoy - comments welcome. No copyrights - share as you like.
I think it said it didn't like my browser, but it redirected to gmx's homepage before I finished reading the paragraph.
Aha, copied it: "Warnung
Die Einstellungen Ihres Browsers verhindern wichtige Funktionen unserer Anwendung. Alle Informationen zu unterstützten Browsern und notwendigen Systemeinstellungen finden Sie auf unseren Produktseiten."
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
nice work!
Some comments;
the hosting site you used spoke English to me, so I guess it knows where your IP address is coming from or something.
The issue with the cassette joints giving the wrong adjustment can be due to wear. But shimano also made some which were badly toleranced (as if the parts always sat in the middle of the available clearance, instead of always pulled in one direction by the springs) . These parts were recalled by shimano, I think. A lot of early Alfine 11 hubs were rejected by customers because of this issue, and yours may be some of those.
To gauge the correct setting for any hub/cassette joint combination, it is best to remove all the planet gear assys from the internal, and assess if the sun-locking pawls are in the middle of their lift or not (by making small cable adjustments either way) when each gear is selected. Note that if the loaded pawl is not fully lifted, the gear will 'engage' but the pawl will also be prone to being pushed out of engagement under load. Things which help this along include anything that might cause the internals not to run concentric, including bent axle, slack in hub bearings, sticky roller clutch etc. If the inside of each sun pinion is damaged or there is debris within it, the pawl cannot lift fully and the gear will never be fully engaged, i.e. it will always slip under load.
NB the last ~0.25mm of pawl lift makes the difference between gear slippage and no gear slippage; on the bench, just trying gear selection, it may seem like there is a 'window' of about 1mm (of cable pull) where the gear is selected correctly, but this is very misleading; at best the 'window' (of full pawl lift) is about 0.5mm (of cable pull) wide. To preserve this level of accuracy requires that the cable is absolutely perfect and in addition is the exact correct thickness; a cable that is 0.1mm larger or smaller in diameter could make for an error in the gear shift selection accuracy.
The majority of the wear debris in the hub usually comes from the net thrust that is generated by the helically cut 1st stage gears in gears 1-6. IMHO a much better lubricant is required to reduce this wear to an acceptable level.
The axle assembly is horrible to reassemble in N4, N7, N8/A8, A11 hubs. Since this part isn't that expensive, and is the source of many shifting/running issues in the hub, it is often easier just to replace it rather than rebuild it.
The 'shift servo' arrangement is similar to that in N4, N7, N8/A8 (low normal) hubs, except in those hubs it works on the upshift not the downshift. It is a clever thing, but is vulnerable to damage if overloaded. NB if the pawls don't both engage, this is when damage is most likely. It isn't sufficient that both pawls are fully retracted when not in use, it is also vitally important that they lift absolutely evenly (i.e. not one more than the other at half-lift), else this risks just one engaging and this very easily causes damage. Again anything that makes the parts less likely to run perfectly concentric also increases the risk of one-pawl engagement.
I agree that the safest thing is to back off pedalling when downshifting, since this prevents any overload in the shift servo. However backpedalling may cause the sun locking pawls to disengage and then re-engage, which I suppose might lead to the pawls not being fully lifted again when drive is resumed.
On the subject of lubricant, I am using a semi-fluid grease with a highly specific viscosity characteristic and a load of friction modifiers and solid lubricants in it. This could (in theory) cause problems in the roller clutches but there have been no signs of trouble yet. The hope is that the thrust wear in gear 1-6 will be reduced.
FWIW if you hub still slips at all this probably means there is still something that is not quite right about it. I suspect that you might still have a cable problem of some kind; on a N8/A8 hub it is usually sufficient to compare the upshift and downshift to the timing marks but the A11 hub is more sensitive than that, even. If you assume that the 'safe window' is about 1mm wide, this will definitely cause troubles, often slippage in gear 2 and gear 3, IIRC.
cheers
Some comments;
the hosting site you used spoke English to me, so I guess it knows where your IP address is coming from or something.
The issue with the cassette joints giving the wrong adjustment can be due to wear. But shimano also made some which were badly toleranced (as if the parts always sat in the middle of the available clearance, instead of always pulled in one direction by the springs) . These parts were recalled by shimano, I think. A lot of early Alfine 11 hubs were rejected by customers because of this issue, and yours may be some of those.
To gauge the correct setting for any hub/cassette joint combination, it is best to remove all the planet gear assys from the internal, and assess if the sun-locking pawls are in the middle of their lift or not (by making small cable adjustments either way) when each gear is selected. Note that if the loaded pawl is not fully lifted, the gear will 'engage' but the pawl will also be prone to being pushed out of engagement under load. Things which help this along include anything that might cause the internals not to run concentric, including bent axle, slack in hub bearings, sticky roller clutch etc. If the inside of each sun pinion is damaged or there is debris within it, the pawl cannot lift fully and the gear will never be fully engaged, i.e. it will always slip under load.
NB the last ~0.25mm of pawl lift makes the difference between gear slippage and no gear slippage; on the bench, just trying gear selection, it may seem like there is a 'window' of about 1mm (of cable pull) where the gear is selected correctly, but this is very misleading; at best the 'window' (of full pawl lift) is about 0.5mm (of cable pull) wide. To preserve this level of accuracy requires that the cable is absolutely perfect and in addition is the exact correct thickness; a cable that is 0.1mm larger or smaller in diameter could make for an error in the gear shift selection accuracy.
The majority of the wear debris in the hub usually comes from the net thrust that is generated by the helically cut 1st stage gears in gears 1-6. IMHO a much better lubricant is required to reduce this wear to an acceptable level.
The axle assembly is horrible to reassemble in N4, N7, N8/A8, A11 hubs. Since this part isn't that expensive, and is the source of many shifting/running issues in the hub, it is often easier just to replace it rather than rebuild it.
The 'shift servo' arrangement is similar to that in N4, N7, N8/A8 (low normal) hubs, except in those hubs it works on the upshift not the downshift. It is a clever thing, but is vulnerable to damage if overloaded. NB if the pawls don't both engage, this is when damage is most likely. It isn't sufficient that both pawls are fully retracted when not in use, it is also vitally important that they lift absolutely evenly (i.e. not one more than the other at half-lift), else this risks just one engaging and this very easily causes damage. Again anything that makes the parts less likely to run perfectly concentric also increases the risk of one-pawl engagement.
I agree that the safest thing is to back off pedalling when downshifting, since this prevents any overload in the shift servo. However backpedalling may cause the sun locking pawls to disengage and then re-engage, which I suppose might lead to the pawls not being fully lifted again when drive is resumed.
On the subject of lubricant, I am using a semi-fluid grease with a highly specific viscosity characteristic and a load of friction modifiers and solid lubricants in it. This could (in theory) cause problems in the roller clutches but there have been no signs of trouble yet. The hope is that the thrust wear in gear 1-6 will be reduced.
FWIW if you hub still slips at all this probably means there is still something that is not quite right about it. I suspect that you might still have a cable problem of some kind; on a N8/A8 hub it is usually sufficient to compare the upshift and downshift to the timing marks but the A11 hub is more sensitive than that, even. If you assume that the 'safe window' is about 1mm wide, this will definitely cause troubles, often slippage in gear 2 and gear 3, IIRC.
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Thanks, Brucey, for your answer. Very impressive how many details you actually know.
I guess it will be a good thing to wait some more discussion and i will finally try and remove most of my faults from the document. Especially regarding the "safe window".
I also understand now that finding the best adjustment with "some" cassette joint and "some" cable does not neccessarily deliver the "best result for every combination" of hub/cassette joint/cable. I assume that if i really check every single gear isolated, then go back to gear 6 and very accurately compare the various resulting "gear 6 yellow marks" which i get for gears 1..11, i might be able to judge if my cassette joint is worn or from a poor production series. I will definitely check that and will replace that thing if there's any doubt that it will suffice. Sure, not everybody will want to disassemble the hub in order to check the CJ, but as i already have the hub in pieces i surely can seize the chance... Regarding inner/outer cable: Mine are original parts and movement is "perfect" in my sense. But yes, i understand that it might be worth looking at these if still there are problems later on.
A thing about pawls: In the hub which is currently disassembled, i noticed that pawl 1 (non-driven side) is, when engaged, not as far up as the other two go. On the other hand, there was no evidence that this is false: The pawl selector "looks" pretty much ok and the pawl moves all the way it allows. Can you confirm that the pawls go differently far up by design? It is quite hard for me to judge how far they actually must go i.e. see possible difference in the latches of the sun wheels. Sure, i can take measurements, but i do not think the accuracy in comparing sun wheel's latch diameters with pawl lifting (which is on one side of the axle only) really tells me everything. Any recommendation (or even numbers) for verification of pawls engagement heights?
Shift assist mechanism in other hubs: Yes it is clear to me that shift assist with (e.g.) A8 works for up-shifting, not down-shifting. Which i find a bit weird because i can not see any need for assisting up-shift. Unly upon down-shifting whilst going uphill with pedals loaded is see a the risk that one HAS TO use assistance.
Unsymmetrical movement of shift assist pawls: I hear what you say, but i would never EXPECT this mechanism to operate in 100% symmetry. If that is so important then i prefer to make the assist pawls "unusable" by filing them sufficiently down. Other points you make about this mechanism make me confident that "all trouble will be gone" once i worked it out.
Last (for today): I was afraid of dis- / re-assembling the axle unit, but i am no longer afraid now. It takes me not more than 10 minutes to do it, and i think i found the "golden rule" for working with it. That's one reason i wanted to share my "book" with others - telling them "do not fear...". Sure, if you get to have a messy unit then any disassembly/reassembly won't improve anything, but thinking back to jb's broken spring clip i personally would prefer to repair it than to replace the axle unit. I have shown people that it is not SOOO difficult to do and it is not a big risk to just go for it.
Thanks - again - for your input, i keep learning much and i very much enjoy that...
I guess it will be a good thing to wait some more discussion and i will finally try and remove most of my faults from the document. Especially regarding the "safe window".
I also understand now that finding the best adjustment with "some" cassette joint and "some" cable does not neccessarily deliver the "best result for every combination" of hub/cassette joint/cable. I assume that if i really check every single gear isolated, then go back to gear 6 and very accurately compare the various resulting "gear 6 yellow marks" which i get for gears 1..11, i might be able to judge if my cassette joint is worn or from a poor production series. I will definitely check that and will replace that thing if there's any doubt that it will suffice. Sure, not everybody will want to disassemble the hub in order to check the CJ, but as i already have the hub in pieces i surely can seize the chance... Regarding inner/outer cable: Mine are original parts and movement is "perfect" in my sense. But yes, i understand that it might be worth looking at these if still there are problems later on.
A thing about pawls: In the hub which is currently disassembled, i noticed that pawl 1 (non-driven side) is, when engaged, not as far up as the other two go. On the other hand, there was no evidence that this is false: The pawl selector "looks" pretty much ok and the pawl moves all the way it allows. Can you confirm that the pawls go differently far up by design? It is quite hard for me to judge how far they actually must go i.e. see possible difference in the latches of the sun wheels. Sure, i can take measurements, but i do not think the accuracy in comparing sun wheel's latch diameters with pawl lifting (which is on one side of the axle only) really tells me everything. Any recommendation (or even numbers) for verification of pawls engagement heights?
Shift assist mechanism in other hubs: Yes it is clear to me that shift assist with (e.g.) A8 works for up-shifting, not down-shifting. Which i find a bit weird because i can not see any need for assisting up-shift. Unly upon down-shifting whilst going uphill with pedals loaded is see a the risk that one HAS TO use assistance.
Unsymmetrical movement of shift assist pawls: I hear what you say, but i would never EXPECT this mechanism to operate in 100% symmetry. If that is so important then i prefer to make the assist pawls "unusable" by filing them sufficiently down. Other points you make about this mechanism make me confident that "all trouble will be gone" once i worked it out.
Last (for today): I was afraid of dis- / re-assembling the axle unit, but i am no longer afraid now. It takes me not more than 10 minutes to do it, and i think i found the "golden rule" for working with it. That's one reason i wanted to share my "book" with others - telling them "do not fear...". Sure, if you get to have a messy unit then any disassembly/reassembly won't improve anything, but thinking back to jb's broken spring clip i personally would prefer to repair it than to replace the axle unit. I have shown people that it is not SOOO difficult to do and it is not a big risk to just go for it.
Thanks - again - for your input, i keep learning much and i very much enjoy that...
Best regards
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
@mjr: that's the thing about cloud services - you never know what they really do... I use firefox 58.0 on XUbuntu currently, that went ok. The german message says it does not like your browser SETTINGS, not the browser itself. GMX is a german provider who really likes to pop-up ads and the like. Perhaps your privacy settings are a little bit too tough. I have not disabled cookies on my browser. That makes most sites work fine. For security, i set the browser to clear history - including cache and cookies - on closing, and i DO close it frequently 
. I guess you will just have to experiment, i don't really have a better idea.
. I guess you will just have to experiment, i don't really have a better idea.Best regards
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
regarding the shift servo pawl lift; if it is uneven then this increases the chances of only one pawl engaging but there is always a chance rather than no chance of that happening anyway. I'd guess that the safe load on the shift servo is at least halved when only one pawl engages. If you make a point of not downshifting under load then presumably you won't damage anything even if the shift servo is not in perfect condition.
Regarding the sun locking pawl lifts, whether they never retract fully or never extend too far is dependant on the tolerances in the pawls and the shift sleeve (NB one possible fault is that the shift sleeve becomes slightly twisted due to downshifting under load; when this happens the pawls don't lift in perfect concert any more). You can verify if the lift is full enough to allow the pawl to enter the pockets in the sun pinion fully by comparing the dimensions of the pockets in the sun pinions with the lift. IIRC it varies very slightly with the sun pinion.
This isn't quite the whole story though; whether the pawl will slip out of engagement or not under load is strictly dependant on whether the thrust line (an orthogonal projection from the pawl tip contact surface inside the pocket in the sun pinion) passes above or below the heel of the pawl; if through or below, the pawl could/will slip out under load and if above, the harder you pedal, the more the pawl digs in to the pocket and the more secure the drive is.
Unfortunately this could also vary with manufacturing tolerances and/or wear in the pawl (*) or the sun pinion, so it is difficult to tell for sure if it is going to work or not by just looking at the parts. In practice the best you can do is usually to check the lift is enough, and to try the hub under full load when set *perfectly* for the suspect pawl to be fully lifted. If it slips then you know all is not well. Having said this, I have yet to encounter a slippage of this sort when the pawl was at full lift, and the parts were not obviously worn or damaged already.
(*) Note that if the hub has been used for long enough whilst badly adjusted, there is the possibility of damage arising to the pawls (eg chipping from slippage) and in addition the nose of the pawls may no longer be the correct shape; specifically the nose of the pawl may wear such that the thrust contact is lower down on the pawl tip even when the pawl is fully lifted (which will provoke slippage, by moving the thrust line down too). A little grinding of the pawl tip can correct this. If you want to check the thrust contact position, it is possible to coat the pawl tips and/or refinish them and examine them again (for marking) after they have seen some load (bench test with coating) or use (changes in pawl tip finish).
Incidentally there is now a revised A11 hub and I think one of the changes has been to make the 'safe window' for each gear larger. Most of the slippage problems in the original A11 model are entirely due to pawls not being fully lifted, and this in turn is mainly due to bad cassette joints and duff cables.
cheers
Regarding the sun locking pawl lifts, whether they never retract fully or never extend too far is dependant on the tolerances in the pawls and the shift sleeve (NB one possible fault is that the shift sleeve becomes slightly twisted due to downshifting under load; when this happens the pawls don't lift in perfect concert any more). You can verify if the lift is full enough to allow the pawl to enter the pockets in the sun pinion fully by comparing the dimensions of the pockets in the sun pinions with the lift. IIRC it varies very slightly with the sun pinion.
This isn't quite the whole story though; whether the pawl will slip out of engagement or not under load is strictly dependant on whether the thrust line (an orthogonal projection from the pawl tip contact surface inside the pocket in the sun pinion) passes above or below the heel of the pawl; if through or below, the pawl could/will slip out under load and if above, the harder you pedal, the more the pawl digs in to the pocket and the more secure the drive is.
Unfortunately this could also vary with manufacturing tolerances and/or wear in the pawl (*) or the sun pinion, so it is difficult to tell for sure if it is going to work or not by just looking at the parts. In practice the best you can do is usually to check the lift is enough, and to try the hub under full load when set *perfectly* for the suspect pawl to be fully lifted. If it slips then you know all is not well. Having said this, I have yet to encounter a slippage of this sort when the pawl was at full lift, and the parts were not obviously worn or damaged already.
(*) Note that if the hub has been used for long enough whilst badly adjusted, there is the possibility of damage arising to the pawls (eg chipping from slippage) and in addition the nose of the pawls may no longer be the correct shape; specifically the nose of the pawl may wear such that the thrust contact is lower down on the pawl tip even when the pawl is fully lifted (which will provoke slippage, by moving the thrust line down too). A little grinding of the pawl tip can correct this. If you want to check the thrust contact position, it is possible to coat the pawl tips and/or refinish them and examine them again (for marking) after they have seen some load (bench test with coating) or use (changes in pawl tip finish).
Incidentally there is now a revised A11 hub and I think one of the changes has been to make the 'safe window' for each gear larger. Most of the slippage problems in the original A11 model are entirely due to pawls not being fully lifted, and this in turn is mainly due to bad cassette joints and duff cables.
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Just a short (?) update...
i filed 2/3 of the shift assist pawls (forgive me for keeping "my" naming, please...) peaks away, maintaining more or less the previously existing angle, so the outer slope lost material on @3/4 of its length. When retracted, the pawls now appear to face inwards, when fully engaged they protrude not further out than when retracted previously with original shape. The circuit will no longer work and will hopefully not get a chance to furtherly degrade. The hub (my "unit #1") is fully re-assembled, lube'd and adjusted. On better wheather, i will swap wheels and give it a try. My expection is that the "knack"'s will now be gone. Whether anything else runs better than before we'll see - i will report back.
Currently i still run my unit #2, the one which gives little problems only. If unit #1 operates satisfactorily (or let's say at least works somehow at all...) then i can disassemble #2 and clean and re-lube it.
On re-assembling unit #1, i encountered two faults in my document which i will correct in a later revision of it - will keep you updated. For now, here are the two issues in plain text in advance:
1. Installation of the shift spring
When you look at pic23 (page 25) you can see that the shift spring counter bearing is not aligned horizontally and that you can see the "hat" of the gear preselection ring. This is false. The bottom layer / 1st round of the shift spring actually runs above that hat, which is almost impossible to avoid when setting the shift spring's bottom hook in the gear preselection ring's latch. No big thing, but if it stays like this then the shift spring will later be squeezed onto the gear preselection ring and the shift assist return spring will no longer be able to do its job turning it.
With installation of the shift spring, a last step is missing where you, getting in from the top, push the bottom layer of the shift spring out with a screwdriver, to get it placed outside the gear preselection ring's hat. You will then notice that the shift spring counter balance ring can be put a little bit further down and sits in horizontally.
2. Installation of the drive plate
In pic38 on page 30 you can see the "dot mark" facing upwards. This is a "must". If it faces downwards then the index position of the cassette joint pulley would be wrong (turned by @30°). While the pic is ok, the text doesn't emphasize the importance of the dot marks.
There are other little things which i will improve in the text but these are not due to false information so no need to list here.
On adjusting after pre-assembly (i.e. with only the driven side completed), i noticed some things which make me worry if this hub will ever again be doing well.
I found, most important, the reason for my earlier statement of the "safe window" width being 1mm. The reason is that the pawl selector (Brucey: shift sleeve) HAS PLAY AGAINST ITS ACTUATOR. Only some 1/100th mm only, but so close to the axle center, this is quite a bit when referring to absolute movement. Seeing that the assist pawls got damaged i think that the entire unit faced excessive stresses and many more is wrong than just the false triggering of the shift assist mechanism. I can hence expect that i will get different results depending on whether i shifted up or down. If so, then the unit is probably dead, unless i buy a replacement for the axle unit. Though the expectation is not very good, i will still test it, as soon as the weather suits me.
Then, i figured that the pawl selector is VEERY difficult to judge anyway. In a running hub, it is held (and guided) by the sun wheels inner surface. Without sunwheels, it tends to stick out a little bit more from the axle which completely changes the pawl timing. It does not help very much to keep the pawl selector lock ring well in place. Once the hub is in the bike again, i will verify the best setting by slight pulls against the index-positions right with the shift lever. I trust my feel more than an unreliable measurement...
Last, i checked if the pawls come out enough anyway. That is very easy to judge when slipping over the sun wheels. None of them would go over an (engaged) pawl unless i pushed it inside carefully, even at designated pocket position. So i figure that all pawls are moving out sufficiently far.
I did not go ahead and verify pawl and/or sunwheel pockets geometry in full. I had to do the laquer thing with my fiat gearbox hypoid many years ago and i definitely do know that i don't want to do stuff like that again...
That's it for today. I don't want to offend anybody, really, but from what i saw in the recent weeks i really think that the SG-S700 was not properly designed regarding the shift assist mechanism. Shimano should not have promoted this hub as being a replacement for derailleurs, moreover for classic derailleur-like kind of shifting. It can NOT keep that promise. If the new version overcame that problems - fine. But they won't give me (or anyone else) a free upgrade. Also, i can only dump an old unit and buy a complete new set, since they sell axle units (i could use a new one in an otherwise old hub) but not the sun wheels as a spare part. But pawls and sunwheels of different hub revisions don't match. So a self-upgrade is not possible. What a pitty.
i filed 2/3 of the shift assist pawls (forgive me for keeping "my" naming, please...) peaks away, maintaining more or less the previously existing angle, so the outer slope lost material on @3/4 of its length. When retracted, the pawls now appear to face inwards, when fully engaged they protrude not further out than when retracted previously with original shape. The circuit will no longer work and will hopefully not get a chance to furtherly degrade. The hub (my "unit #1") is fully re-assembled, lube'd and adjusted. On better wheather, i will swap wheels and give it a try. My expection is that the "knack"'s will now be gone. Whether anything else runs better than before we'll see - i will report back.
Currently i still run my unit #2, the one which gives little problems only. If unit #1 operates satisfactorily (or let's say at least works somehow at all...) then i can disassemble #2 and clean and re-lube it.
On re-assembling unit #1, i encountered two faults in my document which i will correct in a later revision of it - will keep you updated. For now, here are the two issues in plain text in advance:
1. Installation of the shift spring
When you look at pic23 (page 25) you can see that the shift spring counter bearing is not aligned horizontally and that you can see the "hat" of the gear preselection ring. This is false. The bottom layer / 1st round of the shift spring actually runs above that hat, which is almost impossible to avoid when setting the shift spring's bottom hook in the gear preselection ring's latch. No big thing, but if it stays like this then the shift spring will later be squeezed onto the gear preselection ring and the shift assist return spring will no longer be able to do its job turning it.
With installation of the shift spring, a last step is missing where you, getting in from the top, push the bottom layer of the shift spring out with a screwdriver, to get it placed outside the gear preselection ring's hat. You will then notice that the shift spring counter balance ring can be put a little bit further down and sits in horizontally.
2. Installation of the drive plate
In pic38 on page 30 you can see the "dot mark" facing upwards. This is a "must". If it faces downwards then the index position of the cassette joint pulley would be wrong (turned by @30°). While the pic is ok, the text doesn't emphasize the importance of the dot marks.
There are other little things which i will improve in the text but these are not due to false information so no need to list here.
On adjusting after pre-assembly (i.e. with only the driven side completed), i noticed some things which make me worry if this hub will ever again be doing well.
I found, most important, the reason for my earlier statement of the "safe window" width being 1mm. The reason is that the pawl selector (Brucey: shift sleeve) HAS PLAY AGAINST ITS ACTUATOR. Only some 1/100th mm only, but so close to the axle center, this is quite a bit when referring to absolute movement. Seeing that the assist pawls got damaged i think that the entire unit faced excessive stresses and many more is wrong than just the false triggering of the shift assist mechanism. I can hence expect that i will get different results depending on whether i shifted up or down. If so, then the unit is probably dead, unless i buy a replacement for the axle unit. Though the expectation is not very good, i will still test it, as soon as the weather suits me.
Then, i figured that the pawl selector is VEERY difficult to judge anyway. In a running hub, it is held (and guided) by the sun wheels inner surface. Without sunwheels, it tends to stick out a little bit more from the axle which completely changes the pawl timing. It does not help very much to keep the pawl selector lock ring well in place. Once the hub is in the bike again, i will verify the best setting by slight pulls against the index-positions right with the shift lever. I trust my feel more than an unreliable measurement...
Last, i checked if the pawls come out enough anyway. That is very easy to judge when slipping over the sun wheels. None of them would go over an (engaged) pawl unless i pushed it inside carefully, even at designated pocket position. So i figure that all pawls are moving out sufficiently far.
I did not go ahead and verify pawl and/or sunwheel pockets geometry in full. I had to do the laquer thing with my fiat gearbox hypoid many years ago and i definitely do know that i don't want to do stuff like that again...
That's it for today. I don't want to offend anybody, really, but from what i saw in the recent weeks i really think that the SG-S700 was not properly designed regarding the shift assist mechanism. Shimano should not have promoted this hub as being a replacement for derailleurs, moreover for classic derailleur-like kind of shifting. It can NOT keep that promise. If the new version overcame that problems - fine. But they won't give me (or anyone else) a free upgrade. Also, i can only dump an old unit and buy a complete new set, since they sell axle units (i could use a new one in an otherwise old hub) but not the sun wheels as a spare part. But pawls and sunwheels of different hub revisions don't match. So a self-upgrade is not possible. What a pitty.
Best regards
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability
Hi, long time no see...
Calling just to say: "Second's Out!".
My book grew to 52 pages, contains more photographs and - maybe - can start further discussions about the "magic" within pawl engagement profiles...
Here is your link for everybody who is curious:
https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw
A few notes:
1. I use Firefox Quantum (V60) browser and set it up to NOT operate in private mode, and to accept cookies. With this setup, the link should work. It will also do on older firefox editions (back to v.48, i think).
2. To protect your privacy, you may want to close your browser after downloading and have it clearing cookies&cache.
3. GMX is supposed to talk to you in your preferred language if your browser transmits that information.
4. Please download the .pdf AND the .zip, the latter contains all the pictures in better quality than what you got embedded into the .pdf.
5. The link is valid until 2018-06-21.
Comments welcome - enjoy!
Calling just to say: "Second's Out!".
My book grew to 52 pages, contains more photographs and - maybe - can start further discussions about the "magic" within pawl engagement profiles...
Here is your link for everybody who is curious:
https://c.gmx.net/@329602864890517692/P ... EjXCnpZyCw
A few notes:
1. I use Firefox Quantum (V60) browser and set it up to NOT operate in private mode, and to accept cookies. With this setup, the link should work. It will also do on older firefox editions (back to v.48, i think).
2. To protect your privacy, you may want to close your browser after downloading and have it clearing cookies&cache.
3. GMX is supposed to talk to you in your preferred language if your browser transmits that information.
4. Please download the .pdf AND the .zip, the latter contains all the pictures in better quality than what you got embedded into the .pdf.
5. The link is valid until 2018-06-21.
Comments welcome - enjoy!
Best regards
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14
vanGoose
everyday cyclist, sram-3, spectro-s7, a-8, a-11, r-14