It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Manchester Guardian / the Independent!

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Ben@Forest
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Ben@Forest » 9 Sep 2018, 6:11am

bovlomov wrote:Anyway, I have always assumed ministers were selected for their ignorance, as a knowledgeable minister was more likely to go native.


That's a good point. A disinterested minister is probably better than either an interested or an uninterested one.

ambodach
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby ambodach » 9 Sep 2018, 10:12am

Apparently Napoleon said that in politics stupidity is not a handicap.

Ben@Forest
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Ben@Forest » 10 Sep 2018, 1:54pm

ambodach wrote:Apparently Napoleon said that in politics stupidity is not a handicap.

And he would know, making more than a few political errors himself. The Civil Code subjugated all women to the status of minors, denying them all political and civil rights. A woman could do nothing without the signature of her husband.

This in reality changed little for ordinary women, but in pre-revolutionary France aristocratic women had more rights. So Napoeon made women more equal by according all of them fewer rights.

brynpoeth
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby brynpoeth » 18 Sep 2018, 7:24am

661-Pete wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:As an example I've read in several articles that you get a felling licence from the Environment Agency - no you don't.
That's rather specialist knowledge surely, only useful to people who are in the trade? Perhaps one source got it wrong and then others copied the error. Does it really matter?
..

Yes it does matter :wink:
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 18 Sep 2018, 8:03am

I've actually just ditched my Guardian subscription. I used to like the balanced and surprisingly objective tone of their editorial, the quality of their reporting, and the insightfulness of their features.

However, the rude name calling beloved of certain politicians of lately has leaked there too. Not just childish names, but actually rude words, proper foul language, by some feature writers.

Something not going your way politically? That's ok, simply be rude about those with whom your opinions differ. Day in, day out, every day. I can't be doing with such childishness, so they no longer get my money. And then they complain about falling circulation.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Sep 2018, 8:57am

Well at least the guardian reported online about the missouri town mayor advocating for a boycott of their newly set up local newspaper due to its name. The goings on in uranus, missouri are of importance to the UK. No other UK newspaper reported this important story. :wink:

PS if you're peed off by what the guardian says about supporters of brexit then you should avoid supporting Brexit supporting newspapers too. As someone with a laissez-faire attitude to Brexit (I can't affect it on any way so I just let the affects wash over my life and wait to see if there's sewage in the water or it's blue flag) I tend to think the insults are equal on both sides. Getting hett up over insults against Brexit supporters does more to show which side of the fence you're on than any delusion of sitting on the fence. :D

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meic
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby meic » 18 Sep 2018, 9:10am

Getting hett up over insults against Brexit supporters does more to show which side of the fence you're on than any delusion of sitting on the fence. :D

Is he on the remain side then, like me?

I get upset about the insults against Brexit voters because those are the ones that I see (and could have guilt through association over), I dont read the Mail etc and dont see the other side. Even if many in the "Brexit means Brexit" thread repeatedly jump to the conclusion that if you are not with them screaming abuse at supporters of brexit, you must be a supporter of brexit.
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 18 Sep 2018, 10:19am

I'm in no ones 'side' except my own. I can see pros and cons both ways, and being retired with several im dependent income streams I'm fairly well insulated from it. Ultimately, whether the UK is in or out is of little concern to me. What I don't like though is being told that I'm a (insert childish name or rude word) if I were to vote a certain way.

Reason with me, inform me, persuade me, and do so in a polite and adult manner, and I will respond positively. Start getting ansty with me and, like many waverers, I'll dig my heels in. The left pushed the middle ground away with such behaviour, and having done so are in denial and still continuing with the same tactics. Let's see where it gets them.

Best of three, anyone?
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Cugel
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Cugel » 18 Sep 2018, 2:05pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:I'm in no ones 'side' except my own. I can see pros and cons both ways, and being retired with several im dependent income streams I'm fairly well insulated from it. Ultimately, whether the UK is in or out is of little concern to me. What I don't like though is being told that I'm a (insert childish name or rude word) if I were to vote a certain way.

Reason with me, inform me, persuade me, and do so in a polite and adult manner, and I will respond positively. Start getting ansty with me and, like many waverers, I'll dig my heels in. The left pushed the middle ground away with such behaviour, and having done so are in denial and still continuing with the same tactics. Let's see where it gets them.

Best of three, anyone?


The insults seem to be not about the way someone voted but rather about their lack of reason; or their made-up-stuff "reasons". One can understand the angst and subsequent heated language, as people believe a decision (a vote one way or the other) has been made that will have extremely serious consequences. But many (most) seem to have voted based on some sort of infantile emotional state rather than their own (or anyone else's) self-interest. The consequences are now always portrayed in extreme and often hysterical language.

I find a lot of my friends and acquaintances voted leave. At first I attempted to ask them why, in a genuinely interested way (I was a near non-voter because I had no confidence in my ability to understand the consequences, one way or another). It rapidly became clear that no leaver had any reasons other than a set of xenophobic prejudices of some degree, wafted into a hot burn by reading of the Daily Hate Mail and/or The Torygraph. The remainers also seemed to lack their own reasons, other than the more liberal inclination not to hate foreigners or fear multi-culturalism, as recommended by The Grauniad or similar.

I know of no one at all who voted based on their own everyday experiences. All of their thinking on the matter was dictated by the mass media, who are shallow, partisan and (these days) mostly lumps of potted PR from various PR agencies in the employ or various axe-grinders.

I still think very few have any real understanding of the consequences, one way or the other. I know I don't (other than worrying about the history lesson of a fragmented and nationalistic Europe). The government certainly doesn't - wishful thunks all 'round.

In all events, I avoid the subject like the plague now. People have not so much lost all reason (they never had it) as gained a set of hysterical knee-jerk responses to any issue about Brexit that might arise.

Cugel

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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Sep 2018, 2:42pm

I voted remain because I took the view it was a huge step to make and I had to be sure it was right. If I couldn't find a convincing argument to leave I would default to remain. I looked and read all I could to find a reason to leave and nothing presented itself that made sense to my understanding of the world and economics.

So I voted for better in than out if there's bio clear argument to leave. I reasoned too that it would be easier to leave at a later date when such arguments to leave were strengthened than to return to a remain position in the EU with the same unique deal the UK found itself in.

I still hold that view only now I believe the arguments against Brexit are stronger now. However i do not feel on any side per se, only that I think all are losing. By that I mean I feel all Brexitted out. I have no political will to n hold a strong view. I only have resignation that what will happen will happen. Let Brexit wash over me and I'll try and salvage anything that's left.

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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 18 Sep 2018, 5:44pm

Anyway, getting back to the Guardian. Ordinarily an absorbing an informative read, and I hope they get over this petulance and propensity to use rude words when describing people with which they disagree. Grow up a bit and behave like adults, and I'd likely be back there.
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Guardian / the Independent!

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Sep 2018, 4:48pm

Sometimes I love to hate the Grauniad

I read an interesting article, then I slowly realise that something is not quite right
..
Maybe it is about the *australian* laber party, or there is a note at the bottom, "this article is six months [years] old" :?
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brynpoeth
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Manchester Guardian / the Independent!

Postby brynpoeth » 12 Oct 2018, 9:22pm

Sublime and ridiculous, the photo galleries in the Grauniad

Life in Tibet, China
And
The Fairytale Wedding :wink:
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Manchester Guardian / the Independent!

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Oct 2018, 10:38am

The Grauniad is top for royal news, it just reported that Hairy & Meghan are expecting a baby :wink:
Must take time to read the articles about Meghans clothes too
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brynpoeth
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Re: It is earnestly to be hoped - we love the Manchester Guardian / the Independent!

Postby brynpoeth » 12 Nov 2018, 11:32am

The Guardian has so many readers making donations, it hopes to break even soon, +1

One wonders how much longer it will be printed on paper

And what if it starts making a profit? :wink:
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