** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 13 Oct 2018, 11:48am

pete75 wrote:It appears that the DUP are now deciding the fate the UK Prime Minister. Wonder why the Brexit supporters who are always banging on about democracy are strangely quiet about a party with just 10 MPs having so much say on how the country is run. My guess is it's because they agree with DUP views and opinions - right wing and backward.
They'd be very vocal in complaining about the Labour party governing with SNP support.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 80021.html

I doubt the DUP would vote against the budget as this might bring May down giving us a General Election which would risk Corbyn getting in 9or Conservatives getting out) and DUP would not want that. I believe they are talking tough just to get their way. Making threats they would never carry out in reality.

Or maybe they just want a bigger bung?

Ian

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 13 Oct 2018, 11:56am

Wonder why the Brexit supporters who are always banging on about democracy are strangely quiet about a party with just 10 MPs having so much say on how the country is run.


I wonder why anybody is actually making it into an issue.
That is the way our representative "democracy" works. Just as it would be if Labour and SNP went into alliance and Plaid Cymru was extracting a pound of flesh while holding swaying votes.

The 10 MPs have no bigger votes than anybody else, if the 600 hundred odd other MPs were to act with one mind then the DUP would be totally insignificant.
It isnt 10 MPs deciding how the country is run, it is 10 MPs agreeing with another 300 or so on an agreed way forward supported (begrudgingly) by over 300 MPs.

As everybody knows. Left, right, Brexit, remain.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 13 Oct 2018, 2:21pm

meic wrote:
Wonder why the Brexit supporters who are always banging on about democracy are strangely quiet about a party with just 10 MPs having so much say on how the country is run.


I wonder why anybody is actually making it into an issue.
That is the way our representative "democracy" works. Just as it would be if Labour and SNP went into alliance and Plaid Cymru was extracting a pound of flesh while holding swaying votes.

The 10 MPs have no bigger votes than anybody else, if the 600 hundred odd other MPs were to act with one mind then the DUP would be totally insignificant.
It isnt 10 MPs deciding how the country is run, it is 10 MPs agreeing with another 300 or so on an agreed way forward supported (begrudgingly) by over 300 MPs.

As everybody knows. Left, right, Brexit, remain.

And to add to Meic's comments, if you don't believe in fringe parties wielding disproportionate power make sure you don't vote Lib Dem next time. That is their usual role.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 13 Oct 2018, 2:32pm

pwa wrote:
meic wrote:
Wonder why the Brexit supporters who are always banging on about democracy are strangely quiet about a party with just 10 MPs having so much say on how the country is run.


I wonder why anybody is actually making it into an issue.
That is the way our representative "democracy" works. Just as it would be if Labour and SNP went into alliance and Plaid Cymru was extracting a pound of flesh while holding swaying votes.

The 10 MPs have no bigger votes than anybody else, if the 600 hundred odd other MPs were to act with one mind then the DUP would be totally insignificant.
It isnt 10 MPs deciding how the country is run, it is 10 MPs agreeing with another 300 or so on an agreed way forward supported (begrudgingly) by over 300 MPs.

As everybody knows. Left, right, Brexit, remain.

And to add to Meic's comments, if you don't believe in fringe parties wielding disproportionate power make sure you don't vote Lib Dem next time. That is their usual role.

Surely only in a minority government.

A bit off-topic but when the Lib Dems were in coalition with the Conservatives I lost most of my respect for the Lib Dems, considering them poodles for the Conservatives. However, after that when the Conservatives were in majority I changed that opinion as I appreciated how much they had actually moderated the Conservatives agenda.

My impression is that the Lib Dems being in coalition hd a more formal arrangement than that of the DUP propping-up the Conservatives. I don't think the Lib Dems could have threatened to vote against a budget in public.

I'm actually like the idea of minority government. There is far too much of one group squeezing through on a 52:48 type "pass" resulting in division and ignoring anything from the alternative viewpoint. Not enough negotiation and agreement; all division and ignoring other viewpoints. In most things both viewpoints have good arguments but our system seems totally incapable of finding and using the good points but has to force through their own good&bad as a single package.

Ian

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 13 Oct 2018, 2:36pm

More moderation, I see (am I allowed to say this?). There have been several accusations that the moderation on this thread is biased in favour of Remainers. As a committed Remainer myself, I am hardly likely to endorse that viewpoint, but nevertheless ... as, likewise, a firm believer in fairness to both sides .... is this something that ought to be looked into? Only asking...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 13 Oct 2018, 7:09pm

Taking back control... and sending it straight over to Belfast!
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 13 Oct 2018, 7:41pm

Re fishing, I hadn't realised until recently that most remaining UK quotas are in the hands of a very few rich individuals.

Worth mentioning also that other countries didn't allow their fisherman to sell off quotas, they use quotas to protect smaller fishing boats. I think it was thatcher who pushed for UK quotas to be handed out free to boat owners and then allowed to be sold on, many boat owners just cashed in, and made a fast buck by selling their quotas off to Spanish ships. You can't sell something and still keep it (or just take it back for free).

So the crocodile tears of fisherman supporting Farage (who did nothing for them within the EU, couldn't even be bothered to turn up to meetings to put their case because he bunked off work) were just a sham- their own fishing mates sold UK quotas to the Spanish and to the big UK owners. UK fishing is the architect of it's own mess.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 14 Oct 2018, 12:15am

661-Pete wrote:More moderation, I see (am I allowed to say this?). There have been several accusations that the moderation on this thread is biased in favour of Remainers. As a committed Remainer myself, I am hardly likely to endorse that viewpoint, but nevertheless ... as, likewise, a firm believer in fairness to both sides .... is this something that ought to be looked into? Only asking...


On a very long and contentious thread, less than 1% of the posts have been removed. That does not include edited posts.

Given the nature of the thread, I think that is quite good, and speaks well for the members of the forum.

The proportions are in line with the proportions of posts on the thread. Of the removed posts, they numbered
37 by Remainers &/or attacking Brexiters
22 by Brexit supporters &/or attacking Remainers
15 Neutral, quoting removed material, or arguing about moderation.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 14 Oct 2018, 9:13am

Vorpal wrote:On a very long and contentious thread, less than 1% of the posts have been removed. That does not include edited posts.

Given the nature of the thread, I think that is quite good, and speaks well for the members of the forum.

The proportions are in line with the proportions of posts on the thread. Of the removed posts, they numbered
37 by Remainers &/or attacking Brexiters
22 by Brexit supporters &/or attacking Remainers
15 Neutral, quoting removed material, or arguing about moderation.
Thanks for the information: quite an eye-opener! As you say, the imbalance appears to reflect the fact that, among those who have posted on this thread (not necessarily representative of the forum as a whole), Remainers outnumber Brexit supporters, perhaps about two-to-one.

Anyway, I hope the above post settles a few arguments!

Speaking personally, I would welcome more regular and proactive feedback about moderation decisions. Perhaps in the form of a separate, locked thread in the About These Boards section? I would not, on the other hand, want to see moderated posts replaced by 'placeholders' like they do in the Guardian. We don't need finger-pointing! Just my opinion...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 14 Oct 2018, 10:18am

Moderation feedback at viewtopic.php?f=14&t=125680
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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 14 Oct 2018, 10:34am

I see Davis is now calling for a Cabinet revolt.

Does he actually think he has any credibility anywhere anymore? After the pigs-ear he made of negotiations when he was responsible and then having created the complete mess just walks away leaving others to clear it up, why would anybody with have a brain cell left listen to him?

As with Mr Blobby, I'm repeatedly shocked by the egos of some MPs and how that gets in the way of their understanding anything. Nothing outside themselves seems to have any relevance to them.

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Oct 2018, 10:45am

How did he mess up negotiations? My impression was that there wasn't really a substantive negotiation going on at that point, more the typical EU foreplay.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 14 Oct 2018, 11:15am

Bonefishblues wrote:How did he mess up negotiations? My impression was that there wasn't really a substantive negotiation going on at that point, more the typical EU foreplay.

You may be right as apparently he rarely even turned-up.

My opinion is he messed up initially through his lack of understanding of our existing agreements with the EU e.g.
http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/07/david-davis-trade-deals-tax-cuts-and-taking-time-before-triggering-article-50-a-brexit-economic-strategy-for-britain.html (14 July 2016) wrote:I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months. 

- except of course that would be breaking our existing EU treaty obligations - something he seems not to have understood.

He then pursued a path that the EU said would never happen. He was too driven by his own ideology to listen to the other sides and seek compromise.

When his case failed to convince others he'd get his way by threatening to resign (on more than one occasion).

My own opinion is that he and others fail to understand how the EU works and what is important to them. Maybe he repeated the lies from the Leave campaign so often that he started to actually believe them himself e.g. "They need us more than we need them" (a simple failure of mathematics).

He (aided by May) put far too many "red lines" in place far too early, effectively boxing the UK position in to a virtually impossible corner and then left it to others to try and wangle some way to allow those lines to "fade" (by how much we will have to wait and see).

etc., etc.

I'm sure it comes down to a matter of opinion as I'm sure some (maybe only Davis) believes he did an excellent job).

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 14 Oct 2018, 11:29am

Just come across another Davis "classic" failure of understanding/basic maths:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/david-davis-brexit-committee-european-union-lying-government-a8175906.html wrote:A few days after that [i.e. after becoming Minister for Exiting the EU], he [David Davis] went on Sky News to claim the UK would soon have set up a free trade area “ten times larger” than the EU, which in GDP terms, would be significantly larger than Planet Earth itself


Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Oct 2018, 11:37am

You too may be right, I'm sure - the insight that is hindsight will one day illuminate all (and people will still argue about it then!)