Reduction in breath testing

thirdcrank
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Reduction in breath testing

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Dec 2018, 3:11pm

I've not been able to trace a source for the data in this article but it seems to be saying that reductions in the level of traffic policing are leading to significant reductions in the numbers of breath tests administered.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/1 ... ine-years/

Steady rider
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby Steady rider » 11 Dec 2018, 8:59pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/1 ... k-drivers/

is this any better for information?, early info, Freedom of information request it looks like.

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Mick F
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby Mick F » 12 Dec 2018, 5:05pm

I saw a police car today.
First one in weeks.

We have Devon and Cornwall Police here.
We often joke that we have one each.

TBH it really looks like the saying that "many a true word is spoken in jest" is actually correect.
Mick F. Cornwall

brynpoeth
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby brynpoeth » 12 Dec 2018, 5:12pm

Mick F wrote:I saw a police car today.
First one in weeks.

We have Devon and Cornwall Police here.
We often joke that we have one each.

TBH it really looks like the saying that "many a true word is spoken in jest" is actually correect.

Maybe WPC Cornwall and DS Devon use unmarked vehicles :wink:
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pete75
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby pete75 » 12 Dec 2018, 5:38pm

thirdcrank wrote:I've not been able to trace a source for the data in this article but it seems to be saying that reductions in the level of traffic policing are leading to significant reductions in the numbers of breath tests administered.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/1 ... ine-years/


I'd say that's axiomatic given that people have to be seen commiting a moving traffic offence or at least driving erratically to be stopped and tested. Less bobbies on the road means less chance of those things being seen.

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Dec 2018, 7:10pm

pete75 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:I've not been able to trace a source for the data in this article but it seems to be saying that reductions in the level of traffic policing are leading to significant reductions in the numbers of breath tests administered.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/1 ... ine-years/


I'd say that's axiomatic given that people have to be seen commiting a moving traffic offence or at least driving erratically to be stopped and tested. Less bobbies on the road means less chance of those things being seen.


The other trigger is being involved in an accident, and the link says that fewer tests are being administered in those circumstances. Since the police are attending fewer reported crashes, it's obvious that there will be fewer post-crash breath tests. Some of this is a PR matter: many people can be given the impression that it's hunky dory, but it's the potential drink-drivers who need convincing.

Then there are hit-and-run crashes. There are all sorts of reasons behind this conduct but too much to drink is one of them

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Dec 2018, 7:21pm

Another Daily Telegraph report, this saying that the reduction in the permitted blood/alcohol level for driving in Scotland has had no effect on the number of crashes.
... Jim Lewsey, Professor of Medical Statistics, at Glasgow University’s Institute of Health and Wellbeing, said: “Our findings are surprising, given what we know from previous international evidence, which generally supports a reduction of RTAs following the same lowering of a blood alcohol concentration limit.

“However, the results of our high quality study are unequivocal – they indicate that the reduction in Scotland’s drink-drive limit in December 2014 simply did not have the intended effect of reducing RTAs.”

Prof Lewsey added that the most plausible explanation for the findings is that the change in legislation was not backed up with additional police enforcement, nor sustained media campaigning. (My emphasis.)


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/1 ... nts-study/

ie It doesn't matter what the limit is unless it's enforced. ..............
Last edited by thirdcrank on 13 Dec 2018, 9:12pm, edited 1 time in total.

Steady rider
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby Steady rider » 13 Dec 2018, 8:47pm

Despite a 20% reduction (an absolute decrease of 170.3 stays per 100,000 population) between 2007/08 and 2016/17, the 2016/17 rate of stays per 100,000 population remains substantially (4.4 times) higher than it was in 1981/82. In 2016/17 over three times as many people were admitted to hospital at least once for an alcohol-related condition compared to 36 years ago. Over the same time period the average number of admissions per patient per year increased from 1.1 in 1981/82 to 1.5 in 2016/17.


https://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topi ... Report.pdf

Enforcement is critical factor and if less enforcement occurs a positive outcome for the lower drink drive limit may not show up. The above information shows major changes in drinking related hospital cases over time. Some drivers will be well over the old limits, so new lower limits may have little impact in some cases. Pity the full report is not available to see if it relates to overall trends. Fig 1 in the reports shows a drop from about 800 to 600 by about 2014, any changes due to the lower drink drive limit may be masked by overall trends.

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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby mattsccm » 14 Dec 2018, 7:35am

I bet I am shouted down in flames but to my mind, much of the enforcement issue relates to funding surely. Well an simplistic view to this that I am sure is not 100% wrong is more money. To this end why not ring fence fines. Any crime reported and proved by the Police results in the fines being paid to the Police. Sort of a corporate incentive fund. That in itself won't be enough so why not increase fines. Drink driving, apart from anything else, should in my view be fetching fines in the tens of thousands. Same with use of mobiles and speeding. Minimum of 10k for a minor first offence.
I won't accept that its too much. Its a crime and therefore need punishment. So what if it causes hardship. After a few well publicised cases it would get the message across. A double win then, more money if it doesn't work and less crime if it does.
But no, we'll carry on feeling falsely sorry for everyone but the victim.

pete75
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby pete75 » 14 Dec 2018, 8:22am

mattsccm wrote:I bet I am shouted down in flames but to my mind, much of the enforcement issue relates to funding surely. Well an simplistic view to this that I am sure is not 100% wrong is more money. To this end why not ring fence fines. Any crime reported and proved by the Police results in the fines being paid to the Police. Sort of a corporate incentive fund. That in itself won't be enough so why not increase fines. Drink driving, apart from anything else, should in my view be fetching fines in the tens of thousands. Same with use of mobiles and speeding. Minimum of 10k for a minor first offence.
I won't accept that its too much. Its a crime and therefore need punishment. So what if it causes hardship. After a few well publicised cases it would get the message across. A double win then, more money if it doesn't work and less crime if it does.
But no, we'll carry on feeling falsely sorry for everyone but the victim.


Yeah and rather than concentrate on the most serious crimes which tend to end in imprisonment some police forces would put most of their efforts into solving lesser but more lucrative crimes.

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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby Vorpal » 14 Dec 2018, 8:27am

mattsccm wrote:I bet I am shouted down in flames but to my mind, much of the enforcement issue relates to funding surely. Well an simplistic view to this that I am sure is not 100% wrong is more money. To this end why not ring fence fines. Any crime reported and proved by the Police results in the fines being paid to the Police. Sort of a corporate incentive fund.

Because it can become a money making scheme, in which the Police have to 'enforce' even when there is no crime. Those without the means to defend themselves (the poor, foreigners, immigrants, etc.) are the easiest victims.

This sort of ring fencing is common practice in the USA, and one of the things that has contributed to the problems in the justice system there.

It seemed like a good idea when they started, though.
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Barks
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby Barks » 14 Dec 2018, 1:18pm

High profile crimes seem to attract large teams of expensive investigators and go on for years - surely there needs to be a balance betwwwen that and routine low level local stuff. Anyone one know how the ‘budgets’ break down against crime categories?

thirdcrank
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Dec 2018, 10:55am

Barks wrote:High profile crimes seem to attract large teams of expensive investigators and go on for years - surely there needs to be a balance betwwwen that and routine low level local stuff. Anyone one know how the ‘budgets’ break down against crime categories?


I think the big effect of investigations involving large teams is that the personnel have to come from somewhere and, ultimately, that's from uniform patrol. As random breath tests are taboo, you should never see a big stop-and-breathalyse operation; breath testing is part-and-parcel of uniform patrol and if that's thin on the ground, there won't be much breath testing.

The data in my first link - the numbers of breath tests - are a measure of police activity and don't really say anything about what that activity achieves in terms of things like a reduction in crashes. The data in the second link measure achievement, or rather lack of it: the reduction in the permitted blood/alcohol level has not had the expected result and it's suggested that that's because it's not been enforced.

It's important to note that it's often hard to measure the effects of policing, which is a large part of the reason why governments have felt able to cut back and rely on spin. I'm suggesting this may deceive those who will comply anyway, but the potential offenders are quick to spot the reality.

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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby reohn2 » 15 Dec 2018, 12:23pm

thirdcrank wrote:I've not been able to trace a source for the data in this article but it seems to be saying that reductions in the level of traffic policing are leading to significant reductions in the numbers of breath tests administered.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/1 ... ine-years/

Should we be surprised?
Reduction in police numbers equals reduction in policing.
The criminals know this,that's why crime is on the rise,especially violent,crime,theft and traffic/motoring crime.

I was in Holland and Baratts the other day.As I walked in the lady working there(alone)said how glad she was to see someone come in the shop(she looked a bit on edge)as a scally had just walked in 5minutes before pointed to some stuff on the shelves and said "I'm taking these OK?".
What could she do?
She told me the police were a waste of time and any security won't tackle anyone even if they nearby which is potluck if they are.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Reduction in breath testing

Postby Cunobelin » 15 Dec 2018, 4:08pm

Don’t know if it has changed, but there used to be an argument that tackling low level criminals could in some cases prevent progression to higher levels, and as such was an investment