Hobbs1951 wrote:... The Brexit vote could almost have been designed to reveal long festering problems with the country: an elite educational system that puts too much emphasis on confidence and bluff and not enough on expertise, and a political system that selects it's leaders from a self-satisfied Oxbridge clique. In addition the UK has a London focused society that habitually ignores the rest of the UK, and a - Conservative - party that promotes so many pompius mediocrities.
Is Brexit a mistake or a reckoning ?
Don't blame me.
That's a very concussed-looking nail you have there. I'm coming to suspect that whatever the outcome of the current shenanigans, if it ends up weakening the Conservative party's (or parties'?) grip on the country then it might be worth it. I don't know if a hard Brexit would plunge our most vulnerable communities into poverty, but it looks to me like our beloved gubmint has already achieved that aim.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then. --Ole Boot
Pastychomper wrote: I'm coming to suspect that whatever the outcome of the current shenanigans, if it ends up weakening the Conservative party's (or parties'?) grip on the country then it might be worth it. I don't know if a hard Brexit would plunge our most vulnerable communities into poverty, but it looks to me like our beloved gubmint has already achieved that aim.
If we go through with it, it will get worse before it gets better.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.” ― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
mercalia wrote:an interesting article from the BBC on 2nd referendums and an point about the dishonesty of the French in the way they handled an initial NO
Isn't Mrs May behaving like the French there, refusing us a referendum on the altered case now that Brexit has been defined? So would you say she's being dishonest?
eh? the French case they have a referendum over an issue, got no, got the issue modified then decided that it shouldnt be decided by referendum, changed the goal posts and passed the modificaton within the confines of govt. Slightly different but in an important way May is accepting the referendum, the French one seemed not to and ignored the popular vote and didnt risk another rejection so made the decision internally. Thats corrupt and shows contempt in a way Mays version doesnt ( though she is getting close to it)
Pastychomper wrote: I'm coming to suspect that whatever the outcome of the current shenanigans, if it ends up weakening the Conservative party's (or parties'?) grip on the country then it might be worth it. I don't know if a hard Brexit would plunge our most vulnerable communities into poverty, but it looks to me like our beloved gubmint has already achieved that aim.
(1) What makes you think that whatever replaces the conservative party in these circumstances won't much more extreme? (2) Poverty can become more extreme.
Expecting that a chaotic change in government and severe recession will help the poor is wishful thinking at the very best.
You have an old touring bike that you've toured on for the past 40 odd years,in that time it's been rebuilt and had new parts from time to time,along with the servicing needed through wear and tear,you know it's flaws and faults which you can live with but reason with yourself that you could keep it and refurbish the bits of it needed and carry on using it,after all it's been a very reliable machine. Then you think is it time for a new bike?
You decide on the new bike route and set out to buy one as you're planning to cycle around the world.At the only bike shop there is the three or four salesmen all agree that it's the best bike in the shop for what you need. You know nothing about bikes other than what you know about your own bike,so on their say so you think yeah that's the bike for me and really do like the colour too. So you do a bit of research on the web when you get home,and there's conflicting views with quite a few people complaining that it's not the kind of bike you really need for what you envisage. You know a chap who does a lot of cycling and so have a chat with him,it turns out he's done a lot of touring and he invites you along to meet some of his club mates all of which have cycle toured extensively with a couple who cycled around the world themselves,all agree that the bike you're thinking of buying isn't suitable for the job,in fact it's the worse kind of bike for touring on.
You give it a coat of thinking and finally decide to buy the bike in question and take it along to the club tourists your friend so kindly introduced you to,they begin to point out all the faults that,though not apparent to you,because your understanding of bicycles is limited your old bike,are really bad flaws for what you want in fact much worse than expected. At this point you have a couple of choices:- a)take the bike back to the shop and ask for a refund under the trades descriptions act,and spend the money on refurbishing your old bike that's served you well despite it's flaws and faults b)can't face the shame of returning it to the shop for fear of looking like a fool,and so keep the bike making the best of it but with the fear of what might happen on the biggest tour of your life. That's Brexit in in a nutshell Which choice does the real fool make?
Last edited by reohn2 on 18 Dec 2018, 3:30pm, edited 3 times in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Pastychomper wrote: I'm coming to suspect that whatever the outcome of the current shenanigans, if it ends up weakening the Conservative party's (or parties'?) grip on the country then it might be worth it. I don't know if a hard Brexit would plunge our most vulnerable communities into poverty, but it looks to me like our beloved gubmint has already achieved that aim.
If we go through with it, it will get worse before it gets better.
And it'll be a looonnnngggggg time before it gets better,even that arch supporter of brexit Mr Reece Mogg has said as much
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2 wrote:You have an old touring bike that you've toured on for the past 40 odd years,in that time it's been rebuilt and had new parts from time to time,along with the servicing needed through wear and tear,you know it's flaws and faults which you can live with but reason with yourself that you could keep it and refurbish the bits of it needed and carry on using it,after all it's been a very reliable machine. Then you think is it time for a new bike?
You decide on the new bike route and set out to buy one as you're planning to cycle around the world.At the only bike shop there is the three or four salesmen all agree that it's the best bike in the shop for what you need. You know nothing about bikes other than what you know about your own bike,so on their say so you think yeah that's the bike for me and really do like the colour too. So you do a bit of research on the web when you get home,and there's conflicting views with quite a few people complaining that it's not the kind of bike you really need for what you envisage. You know a chap who does a lot of cycling and so have a chat with him,it turns out he's done a lot of touring and he invites you along to meet some of his club mates all of which have cycle toured extensively with a couple who cycled around the world themselves,all agree that the bike you're thinking of buying isn't suitable for the job,in fact it's the worse kind of bike for touring on.
You give it a coat of thinking and finally decide to buy the bike in question and take it along to the club tourists your friend so kindly introduced you to,they begin to point out all the faults that,though not apparent to you,because your understanding of bicycles is limited your old bike,are really bad flaws for what you want in fact much worse than expected. At this point you have a couple of choices:- a)take the bike back to the shop and ask for a refund under the trades descriptions act,and spend the money on refurbishing your old bike that's served you well despite it's flaws and faults b)can't face the shame of returning it to the shop for fear of looking like a fool,and so keep the bike making the best of it but with the fear of what might happen on the biggest tour of your life. That's Brexit in in a nutshell Which choice does the real fool make?
or an alternative scenario. My Yamaha XJ900S Diversion is now 20+ years old and has done lots and lots of miles and I would not want to spend much these days to keep it on the road ( eg new silencers ) so I do fewer miles than I used to, SORN it most of the year and just have a run on it during the summer months on holiday. And to top it all from next year I wont be able to use it in central London due to the new super pollution zone, then 2 years on from that not any where within the North and South Circulars. SO maybe time to get a new bike, its had a good innings... ( I will miss it very much as it has been so reliable with basic maintenance and so liitle trouble)
Last edited by mercalia on 18 Dec 2018, 3:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
roubaixtuesday wrote: (1) What makes you think that whatever replaces the conservative party in these circumstances won't much more extreme? (2) Poverty can become more extreme.
Expecting that a chaotic change in government and severe recession will help the poor is wishful thinking at the very best.
(1) Nothing makes me think that, all I can do is hope. I doubt the current government will get much better on their own in the near or not-so-near future, and the most appealing alternative would be to vote in another at the next election. That would have the likely benefit of encouraging the Conservative party to put its house in order, and the possible benefit of the "other" (whoever that is) doing a better job. Yes, they could be worse, or they could be a photocopy of the same (like what happened in 1997), but for now I have enough optimism to think it would be worth a try rather than crossing our fingers and sticking with the 'devil' we know.
(2) Yes it can, and I fervently hope it does not. And to be clear, I don't think any kind of recession would make it better. But if we do end up facing a recession, I for one would rather our domestic financial decisions were not being made my someone who managed to make the poor poorer even while the economy was relatively flat.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then. --Ole Boot
The French had a very good idea 250 years ago, with a sharp bladed instrument and the bared necks of the elite at the sharp end of it. Mainstream media line to portray them as anarchic thugs, nothing could be father from the truth, these are just ordinary people, joiners, postmen, butchers, the retired. The people are revolting!
The gilet jaunes movement is taking a break over the holidays, but judging by the strong online communal activity they'll be back with a bang in January. Back with a notional similar idea to take down the government and replace them with former general Christian Jean Piquemal, a guy in the mould of De Gaulle, a hard hard case chap who point blank refused to be part of the current Macron administration, when offered the top job with the French army. The British could learn a thing or two from the French. Already there are gilet jaunes movements started in Denmark, Belgium, Sweden, Canada and now Spain.
Talking about a revolution, its been a long time coming. A long time (since 1968).
I'm not sure I'm actually reading this. Will those troops be armed? And will they have orders to shoot to kill?
Perhaps the Provos resuming their violent campaign - on the English mainland - will be the consequence. That would shake folks up a bit...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity. Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments... --- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
mercalia wrote:now now now thats scare mongering, you getting a sub from Cameron?
You mean to say, you aren't scared at the prospect of armed soldiers roaming our streets?
I just hope I don't live long enough to see things like that...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity. Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments... --- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
mercalia wrote:now now now thats scare mongering, you getting a sub from Cameron?
You mean to say, you aren't scared at the prospect of armed soldiers roaming our streets?
I just hope I don't live long enough to see things like that...
I don't think the idea is that they will be fighting a war. More likely they will be marshalling traffic near Dover or something like that. But you can start nailing boards over your windows if it makes you sleep better.
