horizon wrote:Before commenting further, I'm wondering if anyone could tell me what was achieved by this penalty notice.
Punishment of the offender, which is a quite different thing to a just outcome.
horizon wrote:Before commenting further, I'm wondering if anyone could tell me what was achieved by this penalty notice.
drossall wrote:The utility cyclist wrote:So what we've deduced is ...
The police need to prioritise their manpower more effectively.
Acts of parliament/legalise are utterly out of date, inconsistent and unclear not to mention plain illogical/daft with respect to you pushing/pulling, carrying/levitating/adorning as jewellery, a cycle.
There was no victim
The penalty is out of proportion for the alleged breach of being a pedestrian holding a bike by your side.
Did I mention the police need to prioritise their manpower/focus?
Yup, only in the UK do you get this cluster @@@@
I'm not sure that's fair. I don't think we can ask the police to ignore cycling offences entirely, just because it's cyclists. The debate here is over whether there was an offence in the first place.
And there will always be points of law that are unclear. Part of the role of the courts is to try to interpret the intentions of Parliament, or the delegated authority that made a regulation, in a particular case. I'm not sure we'd like a world in which laws were so detailed as to cover every instance. For one thing, it would be easier just to say, "A bike's a bike, ridden or pushed", than to try to define when it was and was not covered by traffic law.
drossall wrote: ... That's a clear explanation, and I think I'm closer to seeing where you're coming from. However, I don't really see the thing about having more than one status (at a given moment). Can you give some examples of that actually happening in practice and how it works out in law? If the most restrictive applies, which makes perfect sense, then in effect there is only one status, but a cyclist pushing a bike is a cyclist, and cannot walk along the pavement, which no-one here is seriously maintaining (even though they might have done before the middle of the last century). On the other hand, if multiple statuses actually apply, it seems to me (and, I think others here) that that has absurd consequences - the zebra above being a case in point.
mjr wrote:thirdcrank wrote:Unless something has changed, if a cyclist rides across a standard zebra crossing, they are not a pedestrian so they don't have the protection they would have as a pedestrian if they were walking.
Maybe not quite as protected, but does a cyclist on the carriageway not normally get precedence over whoever is trying to drive into they space they're occupying anyway?
Somebody wheeling a motorbike is even more restricted as the driver of a mechanically propelled vehicle.
Hang on! Is a pushed motorcycle mechanically propelled or driver propelled there?
thirdcrank wrote: The law is in need of modernising, but unless it is, we are stuck with it.
Jon Lucas wrote:And if you did it five yards before the red light, filtering your way through the stopped traffic? Would that be allowed?
kwackers wrote:You could also try gently lifting your bike over the stop line (i.e. carrying it) and then proceeding - although I suspect a truncheoning is a foregone conclusion here and if not that then you become one of gaz's Schrödinger's cyclist/pedestrian's...
althebike wrote:Earlier this year I rode up to some traffic lights, using the cycle lane, there was the box at the lights for cyclists, I rode in to this box , cycling over to the right hand side to make a right turn when the lights changed. Oncoming traffic that was coming from my left, and making a right turn into my road, saw me cycling across the box , panic set in and a couple of cars swerved and honked horns thinking I was cycling across their path. I shows that even when we think we are doing the right thing, other people can interpret it as being a danger.
thirdcrank wrote:This has come up in various forms a few times but my interpretation is that in a situation like this, riding or pushing the bike makes no difference. Note that the relevant legislation refers to driving or propelling a vehicle.
Here's an earlier thread which is one among many
viewtopic.php?p=623326#p623326
It's a bit long in the tooth and the TSRGD have been updated, but AFAIK nothing to change the relevant law here.
Whatever else you do, read the information with the ticket. If you don't meet the deadlines, then things will grind on by default.
Redrhino wrote:Arrgh. The pain and the shame. Cycling from the City to Paddington on the Embankment Cycling highway, many cyclists are perhaps familiar with the right turn into Nortumberland Ave.
See my picture. I saw the Police officer monitoring the junction so was particularly careful. I dismounted by the circle and re-mounted at the triangle. The right filter traffic light was green so I cycled off - only to be stopped 50m on and issued with an on the spot fine for cycling through a red light.
The Police officer said I shouldn't have walked through a red light. I said cyclists who walk are pedestrians so can ignore signals.
Then she said I should have walked across the whole carriage way (to the red cross).
All captured on the officer's video. Both sides were polite even as I received a £50 fine. If I was reckless or dangerous I could more understand the officer's concern. No cars were passing, it was day light and no one was at risk.
Questions:
Are you allowed to dismount and walk through red lights? I thought so.
Do I have a case? The pink fixed penalty slip says pay or go to court.
Is that the procedure? I would have thought a simple inspection would see the case is surely so minor and throw it out.
Expert views welcome.
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mjr wrote:thirdcrank wrote:Is somebody pushing a pedal cycle propelling it? I think so.
And several others of us think not, with various examples showing absurd consequences if it is. In the absence of statute or precedence, it seems like it might be worth challenging.
thirdcrank wrote:Jon Lucas wrote:So, getting back to the issue raised by the OP, this interpretation of the law seems to suggest that if you are cycling along a road towards a traffic signal with a right turn filter lane, and don't have the confidence to move across into the right turning lane, but instead choose to stop at the red light, walk across to the right turn lane, and remount, you have committed an offence. Absolutely bloody daft.
And if you did it five yards before the red light, filtering your way through the stopped traffic? Would that be allowed?
I'd say the key point is passing the traffic light: you must obey the signal. And my interpretation is that you must obey the signal whether you are riding or pushing the bike.
horizon wrote:Before commenting further, I'm wondering if anyone could tell me what was achieved by this penalty notice.