** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[roubaixtuesday]

We have traditions that help us out though. We have a tradition of respecting the opinions of others within certain limits. That tradition exists in some other countries, but not all.

Yet here we are,

(1) with a campaign whose main slogan, on the side of a bus was a lie, later condemned by the UK statistics authority when Johnson repeated it as Foreign secretary
https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/ ... retary.pdf

(2) with a campaign who used a dishonest leaflet threatening the arrival of 72 million Turks to whip up xenophobia.

(3) With politicians now using the threat of violence from thugs outside parliament to justify not holding a 2nd referendum.

It is this very belief that our traditions will save us which is dangerous. They have already been ripped up, without anyone even realising.

Bosnian Muslims had similar beliefs before the Yugoslav wars, having lived in harmony for centuries.

Well I for one won't be attacking anyone in the street because of a difference in political beliefs, and anyone who does so is my enemy.

It's not so much the people on the streets, it's those who use the lies and xenophobia to incite them. Are they your enemies too? Because that's where the true root of the problem lies.

[pwa]

Yet here we are,

(1) with a campaign whose main slogan, on the side of a bus was a lie, later condemned by the UK statistics authority when Johnson repeated it as Foreign secretary
https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/ ... retary.pdf

(2) with a campaign who used a dishonest leaflet threatening the arrival of 72 million Turks to whip up xenophobia.

(3) With politicians now using the threat of violence from thugs outside parliament to justify not holding a 2nd referendum.

It is this very belief that our traditions will save us which is dangerous. They have already been ripped up, without anyone even realising.

Bosnian Muslims had similar beliefs before the Yugoslav wars, having lived in harmony for centuries.

Well I for one won't be attacking anyone in the street because of a difference in political beliefs, and anyone who does so is my enemy.

It's not so much the people on the streets, it's those who use the lies and xenophobia to incite them. Are they your enemies too? Because that's where the true root of the problem lies.

Show me specific examples of what you mean and I will condemn them or not as appropriate, if I must. You seem to be in more of a combative rather than bridge building mode today

(popping out on errands so won't be replying to anything for a while)

[roubaixtuesday]

Show me specific examples of what you mean and I will condemn them or not as appropriate, if I must. You seem to be in more of a combative rather than bridge building mode today

'twas not my intention to be overly combative, I apologise.

I am trying to make the point, however, that a dishonest and xenophobic campaign was always, inevitably, going to lead to this sort of behaviour. It's a feature, not a bug, alas. However much it is genuinely deplored by folk such as yourself.

On specific examples, I refer you to viewtopic.php?f=15&t=108977&start=10365#p1310874

And here we have the Brexit secretary using the thuggery as a rationale not to have a 2nd vote.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... s-fresh-eu

[merseymouth]

hello again, On Sunday 20th March 1949 10 policemen were injured when they had to intervene when British Communists clashed with a group parading as the "Union Movement" (for European unity).
That was Oswald Moseley's rebranded Union of Fascists. The next day the Home Secretary banned all marches through London for three months.
So anything Moseley was in favour of I am not!
TTFN MM

[PDQ Mobile]

hello again, On Sunday 20th March 1949 10 policemen were injured when they had to intervene when British Communists clashed with a group parading as the "Union Movement" (for European unity).
That was Oswald Moseley's rebranded Union of Fascists. The next day the Home Secretary banned all marches through London for three months.
So anything Moseley was in favour of I am not!
TTFN MM

Modern Europe is a very long way from 1949.
Moseley is dead.

If you think this is relavent to today's mess then I suggest a little European travel.
For it is easy for the unscupulous to seed the minds of inexperience with lies and half truths.

[merseymouth]

Hi PDQ mobile, So Europe is very different from 1949?
Loads of Nazis in Germany, far right Fascists galore in Italy, Franco fiends in Spain, far right folk galore in Austria, even the Netherlands has a hard core of extremists, need I go on.
Even in Britain the idiotic Fascist fringe is active, oop's that's UKIP now!
Though now dead the horrible Moseley still has adherents, only PG Wodehouse had the right take on him, Lord Sidcup.
But sadly extreme left supporters can be just as bad as the BUF!
So let us all display a bit more tolerance in these troubled times. TTFN MM

*P.S. My trips abroad are now out of the question, although I would love to do more cycling tours with the Pilbeams.
With my current medical issues the travel insurance is a very big problem. But my love of places such as France & Belgium continues.

[Cyril Haearn]

MM surely you could still visit Ireland, +1?

[pwa]

Show me specific examples of what you mean and I will condemn them or not as appropriate, if I must. You seem to be in more of a combative rather than bridge building mode today

'twas not my intention to be overly combative, I apologise.

I am trying to make the point, however, that a dishonest and xenophobic campaign was always, inevitably, going to lead to this sort of behaviour. It's a feature, not a bug, alas. However much it is genuinely deplored by folk such as yourself.

On specific examples, I refer you to viewtopic.php?f=15&t=108977&start=10365#p1310874

And here we have the Brexit secretary using the thuggery as a rationale not to have a 2nd vote.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... s-fresh-eu

I suppose when you question the very core of our identity you risk stirring up folk who are easily stirred up, but I don't think that is reason enough not to ask the questions.

Likewise, the possibility that thugs might react badly to a decision is not in itself a good reason to avoid that decision. We can't allow the shaping of our country to be dictated by how the yobs might react.

[merseymouth]

Hi Cyril Haearn, I'm pencilled in to take my trike to Middleton, near Cork in July. Spreading the gospel of "Two Wheels Good, Three Wheels Better"!
Hope to take in Cobh, to further my knowledge of Irish affairs, also to seek out the sights photographed by Father Browne SJ.
Might also visit areas bombed by Germany in WW2? IGICB MM

[pete75]

Show me specific examples of what you mean and I will condemn them or not as appropriate, if I must. You seem to be in more of a combative rather than bridge building mode today

'twas not my intention to be overly combative, I apologise.

I am trying to make the point, however, that a dishonest and xenophobic campaign was always, inevitably, going to lead to this sort of behaviour. It's a feature, not a bug, alas. However much it is genuinely deplored by folk such as yourself.

On specific examples, I refer you to viewtopic.php?f=15&t=108977&start=10365#p1310874

And here we have the Brexit secretary using the thuggery as a rationale not to have a 2nd vote.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... s-fresh-eu

I wonder what they'll do if, as is seeming more likely, Brexit doesn't happen?

[PDQ Mobile]

Hi PDQ mobile, So Europe is very different from 1949?
Loads of Nazis in Germany, far right Fascists galore in Italy, Franco fiends in Spain, far right folk galore in Austria, even the Netherlands has a hard core of extremists, need I go on.
Even in Britain the idiotic Fascist fringe is active, oop's that's UKIP now!
Though now dead the horrible Moseley still has adherents, only PG Wodehouse had the right take on him, Lord Sidcup.
But sadly extreme left supporters can be just as bad as the BUF!
So let us all display a bit more tolerance in these troubled times. TTFN MM

*P.S. My trips abroad are now out of the question, although I would love to do more cycling tours with the Pilbeams.
With my current medical issues the travel insurance is a very big problem. But my love of places such as France & Belgium continues.

I am pleased your love of France and Belgium continues!
In my view the young generations an d many older ones show few of the traits you state.
There is an extreme right in many places, the UK included.
Europe is surely a very different place to the war ravaged ruin of 1949.
There are a great many liberal and tolerant people too in it too. Finest on the planet IMHO.

Immigration has put a strain on many countries in Europe, the need to create work and housing and the cultural differences.
Probably it was the big one in thevresult of the referendum here.

But those liberal elements remain strong in my view.
Let us not go back to Moseley and his ilk. Don't let them dictate the debate about the future of the UK.

It is rather strange they choose to harrass Ms Soubry, she has after all tried to champion the retaining of "ordinary" jobs in the UK. Against the interests of inherited wealth and her own party line.
Though she is eloquent and through that eloquence achieves power; perhaps they fear her? We could do with a few more like her.

[Mick F]

I wonder what they'll do if, as is seeming more likely, Brexit doesn't happen?

As I said on another thread.

Best thing is to forget Brexit for now. Put it on the back burner.
General election asap.

[mercalia]

so we aint going to get Mays deal. And the mps have just defeated the govt on a no deal Brexit. So they really know what they are doing? it just seems that Parliament is just carrying on voting while the Titanic chugs along its merry way. I bet next they will vote no canceling of Brexit also, or hitting any icebergs. Then each of the alternatives - Canada++, Norway++. They are really earning their £77K arent they? not. I wonder how many of these chatbots will be around next General Election.

[Cyril Haearn]

Europe has changed since 1945/1949, but people have not changed much, can still be stupid
We thought everything would be better after 1989

[roubaixtuesday]

Europe has changed since 1945/1949, but people have not changed much, can still be stupid
We thought everything would be better after 1989

Whilst Britain is in a bad place right now, it is worth remembering that in '89, if I remember correctly, Mandela was in prison, Honecker was running East Germany, and Pinochet Chile. I think Cruise missiles and other "tactical" nuclear weapons were still deployed here too.

We should count our blessings.

[warning: this post has not been checked for accuracy and may contain traces of rose tinted memories]