Wood Burners

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al_yrpal
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby al_yrpal » 14 Jan 2019, 5:37pm

Our log burner....

IMAG0580.jpg























Runs on bottled gas.... :lol:

Fools a lot of people though, and no faffing with logs

My son's dog keeps pinching a log when he visits :?

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

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mjr
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby mjr » 14 Jan 2019, 5:40pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
landsurfer wrote:One of the big issues where we live is the amount of log burners .. burning coal !!!
I have a white car ... at the moment covered in soot spots from god knows whose "log" burner ..... :(

You mean multi-fuel burners I think, for the way to knacker a log burner pdq is to burn much hotter-burning coal on it.

Many multi-fuel burners need their setup changing to switch between coal and logs safely, which can be anything from moving a lever to swapping parts around - but from the amount of nasty brown smoke, I'm not sure people actually do it. :-( This is part of the reason why we need some enforcement, not only point-of-sale bans.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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landsurfer
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby landsurfer » 14 Jan 2019, 5:40pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
landsurfer wrote:One of the big issues where we live is the amount of log burners .. burning coal !!!
I have a white car ... at the moment covered in soot spots from god knows whose "log" burner ..... :(

We burn only hard wood i have collected and some softwoods purchased ... a bi annual clean of the chimney shows little residue, we keep away from spruce and pine woods with their residue .....

You mean multi-fuel burners I think, for the way to knacker a log burner pdq is to burn much hotter-burning coal on it.


No .. i mean people who buy cheap log burners ... then burn coal !!! .... South Yorkshire ...coal central !!
The road goes on forever.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Jan 2019, 5:41pm

Well if they are, they won't be for very long.

Mark R
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Mark R » 14 Jan 2019, 6:58pm

They'll probably try and ban bonfires too. There's certain types of people around who seem very keen on banning things and dorky little Gove seems just that type of person.


You think banning garden bonfires would be a bad thing??

I'd like to hear the rationale behind that one!

Maybe you live somewhere very isolated, otherwise how can you possibly justify forcing others to breathe your smoke?

Could the practice of lighting garden bonfires be the ultimate, quintessential example of forcing the external costs of one's behaviour onto others?

The ultimate example of that toxic 'I'll do as I please, **** everybody else' attitude that is so toxic and pernicious??

I can't think of a better example: One householder enjoys the convenience of being able to dispose of all their garden waste at zero cost to themselves; everyone downwind gets to breathe the stinking, carcinogenic, asthma inducing smoke......

BTW, Gove is not proposing to ban bonfires, no sir, not even in smoke controlled areas! Did anyone actually believe the propaganda that the Tories are about to 'get tough on air pollution'?

pete75
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby pete75 » 14 Jan 2019, 7:17pm

mjr wrote:Many multi-fuel burners need their setup changing to switch between coal and logs safely, which can be anything from moving a lever to swapping parts around - but from the amount of nasty brown smoke, I'm not sure people actually do it. :-( This is part of the reason why we need some enforcement, not only point-of-sale bans.


You mena prodnoses going round people houses checking what sort of fires they've got?

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Mick F
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Mick F » 14 Jan 2019, 7:31pm

Capita?
Maybe they need something else to check on as well as TV licence dodgers?
Perhaps we should have a Log Burner Licence, and the over 75s can get it free.

:lol: :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall

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661-Pete
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby 661-Pete » 14 Jan 2019, 8:11pm

Mark R wrote:You think banning garden bonfires would be a bad thing??

I'd like to hear the rationale behind that one!
I don't know how much of the country is already covered by a ban on garden bonfires, but I'm pretty sure it extends to our local estate. Leastways, I've never seen any of the neighbours light a bonfire, in all the time we've been living there. Barbecues - yes (wanna ban them btw?) - but no bonfires except occasionally on Bonfire Night (and even that's happening less and less - though people still let off fireworks (wanna ban them btw?).

OK. I've not looked up the statistics, but I reckon that today's garden bonfires make but a minuscule contribution to the overall levels of pollution across the country as a whole. Far exceeded by pollution from agriculture, power generation, industry, and motor vehicles.

Locally, it is true, bonfires can be a problem. Especially when some rustic idiot lights one such that the smoke drifts right across a busy road. Been there - when out cycling! This can cause accidents - even fatal ones, as happened near Taunton in 2011. But this is the exception, I should like to hope! Certainly when we light the very occasional bonfire in France (for which we now need to seek permission from the Mairie) we make sure the wind's in the right direction! The smoke either goes straight up or drifts across fields with no houses in its path, and no-one is inconvenienced.

Wanna ban me?
Pete

Et qui rit des curés d'Oc?/De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques./De quelles loques ce turque coin./Et ne d'anes ni rennes,/Ecuries des curés d'Oc. - Louis d'Antin

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jan 2019, 8:21pm

Phil Fouracre wrote:Not sure about your ‘wooding’though? Where from, what sort etc? You should leave fallen wood to rot for environmental reasons.


Mostly from forestry waste.
Some windblown stuff.
All my own labour.
Totally sustainable at present usage rates.

I cut virually no living wood.
Indeed one of my passions about trying to get more energy from any given amount of wood is to preserve trees. 60 years of tree hugging!!

I am tempted to ask, do you think your bought-in wood is all sustainable? And how do you know?

Or does it just grow on trees! Sorry just couldn't resist.
Enjoy your fire.

pwa
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2019, 8:38pm

The wood I am currently burning is waste from a sawmill / carpentry workshop that makes rough things such as pallets. Nice big chunks of bone dry softwood, quite dense actually so it burns for a long time. Welsh grown wood from managed plantations. Cheap too.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2019, 9:23pm

On the drive home tonight radio 4 had an interview with a boffin who studies air pollution matters. Very interesting. The points I noted is below!:
    38% of all uk particulate pollution is from woodburners
    The difference between an efficient burner and inefficient burner is that the efficient burner releases a fifth of the particulates of an inefficient one.
    In trials around the world where all stood burners / fires were changed to only efficient ones it has been shown that the particulates from woodburners halves after the change.
    The particulates released does spread into the atmosphere but it mostly affects the immediate neighbours where it actually gets into houses. Basically the comments this academic gets when discussing this is to describe it as like passive smoking. He was laughing when the interviewer said that too because he hears that a lot when he's told people about the problem. I mean you'd complain if your neighbour popped round and started to smoke in your house. That's kind of what is happening with woodburners. That was what the academic was expressing better than me.

So as efficient as you can make it I ask you whether it's right that your neighbours should get your pollution off it's not needed for heat if you can get mains gas heating installed. Indeed if it already have an efficient central heating and using it because it looks and feels nice to have a real fire in your living room, is that acceptable?

Mark R
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Mark R » 14 Jan 2019, 9:37pm

Tangled Metal wrote:On the drive home tonight radio 4 had an interview with a boffin who studies air pollution matters. Very interesting. The points I noted is below!:
    38% of all uk particulate pollution is from woodburners
    The difference between an efficient burner and inefficient burner is that the efficient burner releases a fifth of the particulates of an inefficient one.
    In trials around the world where all stood burners / fires were changed to only efficient ones it has been shown that the particulates from woodburners halves after the change.
    The particulates released does spread into the atmosphere but it mostly affects the immediate neighbours where it actually gets into houses. Basically the comments this academic gets when discussing this is to describe it as like passive smoking. He was laughing when the interviewer said that too because he hears that a lot when he's told people about the problem. I mean you'd complain if your neighbour popped round and started to smoke in your house. That's kind of what is happening with woodburners. That was what the academic was expressing better than me.

So as efficient as you can make it I ask you whether it's right that your neighbours should get your pollution off it's not needed for heat if you can get mains gas heating installed. Indeed if it already have an efficient central heating and using it because it looks and feels nice to have a real fire in your living room, is that acceptable?


Good post

So if the latest woodburners can theoretically halve particulate emissions, we need to set that against the number of new woodburning appliances being installed.
It seems pretty obvious that if the current middle class fad for woodburning continues apace, then the problem will get worse not better.

Is Gove proposing anything to reverse this damaging trend???

IMO the Tories' spin doctors have informed them that air pollution is now an electoral issue and this is their attempt to look as if they are doing something. It clearly doesn't stand up to scrutiny and actually amounts to them doing virtually nothing.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2019, 9:42pm

I am not talking about people who don't have access to mains. Who lives on rural areas. Or who really have no practical alternative and run efficient / lower polluting burners. This is usually urban or suburban use where it is an aesthetic choice not a need. It looks good and feels good but isn't needed.

Once upon a time they set up smokeless zones. Right now I believe they should set up no burn zones where you cannot have woodburners at all.

Bear in mind the actual number of people with woodburners or open fires amount so just 5% of the population but they account for 38% of the UK national particulate pollution. That is a very significant set of figures. It needs to change. The biggest source of particulate pollution.

Each typical woodburner releases the same amount of particulates as 6 large HGVs driving up and down outside their house whenever it's lit.

Diesel vehicles have designed ways to handle and reduce particulate emissions. Industrial and power generation sources have active methods to reduce particulate emissions. Woodburners don't have this. The best you can do is use a high efficiency burner and make sure your wood is as dry as possible. That's the reason it's so bad.

Sorry to be all preaching about this. I'm an asthmatic who developed it after taking up cycle commuting. There's a lot of fires and woodburners in my home town. There's likely to be a lot on my commute too. I believe it is in part caused by the increase in people installing and using woodburners because my asthma gets worse i winter and autumn and it doesn't reduce if I take the away from road routes (because both routes go past houses with fires going).

I also don't see them as necessary in towns or even rural areas with mains gas. My parents had two fireplaces but replaced one with a gas fire and rarely light the other now. Their view is the heating needs to be on for the rest of the house which makes having a fire too hot even if that room's radiators get turned off. My inlaws got a very good, high efficiency burner. He uses a moisture meter to ensure his wood is dry enough. However he rarely lights it. Reason is the central heating costs less and is on for the rest of the house anyway. A lit fire is just burning money but adds nothing practical.

pwa
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby pwa » 14 Jan 2019, 9:46pm

Tangled Metal wrote:On the drive home tonight radio 4 had an interview with a boffin who studies air pollution matters. Very interesting. The points I noted is below!:
    38% of all uk particulate pollution is from woodburners
    The difference between an efficient burner and inefficient burner is that the efficient burner releases a fifth of the particulates of an inefficient one.
    In trials around the world where all stood burners / fires were changed to only efficient ones it has been shown that the particulates from woodburners halves after the change.
    The particulates released does spread into the atmosphere but it mostly affects the immediate neighbours where it actually gets into houses. Basically the comments this academic gets when discussing this is to describe it as like passive smoking. He was laughing when the interviewer said that too because he hears that a lot when he's told people about the problem. I mean you'd complain if your neighbour popped round and started to smoke in your house. That's kind of what is happening with woodburners. That was what the academic was expressing better than me.

So as efficient as you can make it I ask you whether it's right that your neighbours should get your pollution off it's not needed for heat if you can get mains gas heating installed. Indeed if it already have an efficient central heating and using it because it looks and feels nice to have a real fire in your living room, is that acceptable?


All I can say is my wood burner is active, my wife and I have just been for a twenty minute stroll around the village, and we did not smell smoke from our wood burner when we were walking away from the house or returning to it. Just as normal. There are others in the village who burn wood and I did not smell any smoke as we walked round. I know the smell itself is not the main issue, but if there is no smell it is very unlikely there is a problem with particulates. Dry wood, efficient burner and good technique mean minimal smoke. You need all three to be consistently clean burning.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Wood Burners

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Jan 2019, 9:51pm

This isn't a party political issue, this knowledge about pollution issues has been known for years and in different governments. It's become a political issue now but tbh pollution issues needed attention for many decades. We could have been in a much better place if Cameron or Brown or Blair took it serious earlier.

The other issue is the promotion of the diesel car over petrol. That was as much about protectionism. Diesel was always more popular in Europe with European manufacturers having me developed diesels and higher take up that say Japanese rivals. Promoting diesel for carbon emission reasons when it was known diesel is worse than petrol for the other pollutants. Put it simply carbon pollution is related to global warming. But SOx NOx and particulate pollutants are killing five figures every year in this country I believe (can't remember but I think it's 10k). Pushing diesel was possibly a bad choice made in Europe especially when it's really about protecting EU motor companies.