Tubeless tribulations

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Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Brucey » 14 Jan 2019, 5:11pm

mnichols wrote:
That would make sense. I used co2 because it releases the gas quickly to pop the rims.

Any ideas on how to clean the dried and crusty sealant from the inside of the tyre. If i can find the ho!e again then ill try patching it. Otherwise im going with conti 4 seasons, conti tubes and sealant in the tube


dried latex just scrubs/peels off. Maybe there is a trick to shifting it quickly but if so I have not found it.

FWIW if you seat the tyre using CO2, then deflate and reinflate with air, you may avoid the sealant drying up so quickly; it takes time for the CO2 to dissolve in the sealant. There are also sealants that claim a longer life and/or that they don't thicken when CO2 is used. However I'm not in the best position to advise which ones are any good; there are many and I only have direct experience of a few.

Having bought tubeless wheels/tyres and found that I can mount and demount them, I'd be tempted to persevere a bit longer. I think that if (hawthorn?) hedgecuttings are your problem, they ought to seal OK provided the sealant is still fluid.

However I must say that I'm not tempted to get a tubeless setup myself though; tubeless compatible rims seem to make any tyre a tight fit and this is in contrast to the tyres and rims I'd normally choose to use on a road bike. I only use my road bike fitted with the lightest/fastest tyres in the summer these days, so punctures are rarely a problem anyway. When they do happen my tyres come off the rims very easily so a tube change is a two-minute irritation. Given that fitting tubeless tyres is a bit of a palaver I'd probably have to be looking at getting ten or twenty (avoidable) punctures a year before I would be tempted to make a change. IME this is only likely to happen if you insist on running the lightest fastest tyres available all winter long.

cheers
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mnichols
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Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 14 Jan 2019, 6:20pm

Brucey wrote: When they do happen my tyres come off the rims very easily so a tube change is a two-minute irritation. Given that fitting tubeless tyres is a bit of a palaver I'd probably have to be looking at getting ten or twenty (avoidable) punctures a year before I would be tempted to make a change. IME this is only likely to happen if you insist on running the lightest fastest tyres available all winter long.

cheers


I think that one of the problems with fixing tubeless on the road is that you pop one bead off to get the tube in the but the other side is still stuck in the rim. This makes getting the other one back on difficult after you have fitted the tube because it's high on the circumference. Whilst I could pop the other side off and put it in the pit to make reseating the tyre easy on the road, this makes resitting them in the garage at home harder - i.e., it's easier to resit it tubeless when one bead/rim is still stuck.

Whilst, I don't find fixing punctures a big hassle on the road (It's a two minute job) there are times when you just don't want the hassle.

I may persevere one more time, or I may put sealant in an inner tube and try that. The main problem that I find with tubeless is sitting the tyres both on the road and in the garage, the second issue is the mess. This would seem to address both those problems. The main advantage of tubeless (for me) is puncture protection and I think that I would still get that benefit - or have I compromised that in some way?

The main benefit of Schwalbe Pro One is they roll well - I don't think that putting a tube in will hinder that? The main problem I have with them is that they puncture easily - but the gunk in the tube should solve that. Also, roadside repairs become easier and less of a faff.

I think this approach may have two disadvantages: 1, it's a bit heavier; 2, Would pinch flats become an issue again at low pressure?

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Brucey » 14 Jan 2019, 6:38pm

putting a tube in a tubeless tyre will

-be heavier than a full tubeless or a full-tubed setup
- have high rolling resistance (about the same as having two inner tubes...)

-having sealant in quantity (i.e. sloshing about) also increases rolling resistance whether it is in a tube or not.

-it seems that sealant in a tube doesn't work quite as well as sealant in a tubeless tyre. I think this is more the case if the tube stretches much when it is inflated, but this is in the realms of anecdota more or less.

Yes pinch flats are more of a possibility with a tube fitted, but if you are squashing the tyre flat against the rim something is wrong with your setup anyway. If this happens often enough to be a consideration, rim damage is never far away.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

mnichols
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Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 14 Jan 2019, 7:56pm

Brucey wrote:putting a tube in a tubeless tyre will

-be heavier than a full tubeless or a full-tubed setup
- have high rolling resistance (about the same as having two inner tubes...)

-having sealant in quantity (i.e. sloshing about) also increases rolling resistance whether it is in a tube or not.

-it seems that sealant in a tube doesn't work quite as well as sealant in a tubeless tyre. I think this is more the case if the tube stretches much when it is inflated, but this is in the realms of anecdota more or less.

Yes pinch flats are more of a possibility with a tube fitted, but if you are squashing the tyre flat against the rim something is wrong with your setup anyway. If this happens often enough to be a consideration, rim damage is never far away.

cheers


Hmm, ill persevere with Pro Ones then, but only if I can repair and resit. They are +40 quid each and i got about hundred miles out the last one and less than a thousand out the one before that.

AndyA
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Location: Edinburgh

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby AndyA » 14 Jan 2019, 9:27pm

If you do fit a tube at the side of the road, do remember to remove the tyre and clean off the sealant (possibly when you get home). If you forget about it and go to remove the (now punctured) tube some months later you may find it very well adhered to the tyre!

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Brucey » 15 Jan 2019, 5:56pm

if you want to try sealant in tubes these are not too expensive

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TUOKOSS/oko-self-sealing-bike-inner-tube

but don't get too excited by the headline price; only a few sizes cost so little, chances are that the ones you need will be a fair bit more.

cheers
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Location: English Riviera

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 16 Jan 2019, 12:17am

Hi,
Brucey wrote:putting a tube in a tubeless tyre will

-be heavier than a full tubeless or a full-tubed setup
- have high rolling resistance (about the same as having two inner tubes...)

-having sealant in quantity (i.e. sloshing about) also increases rolling resistance whether it is in a tube or not.

-it seems that sealant in a tube doesn't work quite as well as sealant in a tubeless tyre. I think this is more the case if the tube stretches much when it is inflated, but this is in the realms of anecdota more or less.

Yes pinch flats are more of a possibility with a tube fitted, but if you are squashing the tyre flat against the rim something is wrong with your setup anyway. If this happens often enough to be a consideration, rim damage is never far away.

cheers

The long and the short of it.
Pinch flats were a problem green laneing on off road M/cycles if you ran too low.
Not sure when I last had a pinch flat on a bicycle if ever, but I tend to ignore all calls for low pressure and subtle walls, go for speed and press hard on the pedals.
I suppose that my old steel frames suit me fine so I have no hampering after exotic stuff.
On road its 23's and off its 35's, devon has more than its share of pot holes too.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

mnichols
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Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 16 Jan 2019, 2:12pm

Got the chance to do a short tour at the weekend so resolved to sort the situation in my lunch hour, and using whatever I had in the shed

Removed the (punctured) Schwalbe Pro One that has the temporary tube off the back wheel. Put a part worn Conti GP 4 Seasons on, with a tube. Noticed that it had a removable core, so unscrewed this and put a big squirt of tubeless sealant in (what's the harm?), screwed the core back in, pumped it up. Job done. 5 minutes no hassle.


Glancing at the front wheel, it has a Schwalbe Pro One setup tubeless. All works. Don't fix what isn't broken. Leave it alone....but I had a bit of sealant left in the injector so decided to top it up whilst I'm there. Slowly, slowly unscrewed the core so as not to get a fountain of sealant. Pretty sure it's flat so take the core out. Massive fountain of sealant everywhere. All over the bike, wheel, rotors, hub, handlebars, carradice saddle bag, me, the bike next to it, shed wall and everything within a few few radius. Not happy. Spent the rest of the hour washing and cleaning everything in the shed.

Still got two tubeless tyres to repair,one which I spent a whole day trying to sit on the rim. At £40 a pop, this might be the end of my tubeless experiment on my road bike or at least with these tyres.

If the sealant in the tube works then I'm might stick with that - no mess, no fuss

On the other hand, the WTB Nano on the Gravel Bike, just run and run so will stay tubeless on that

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Brucey » 16 Jan 2019, 2:55pm

mnichols wrote: …..Massive fountain of sealant everywhere. All over the bike, wheel, rotors, hub, handlebars, carradice saddle bag, me, the bike next to it, shed wall and everything within a few few radius. Not happy. Spent the rest of the hour washing and cleaning everything in the shed.....


best to do this sort of thing outdoors on a loose wheel, 'just in case'. Just another of the 'many potential pitfalls'.

FWIW your experience also underlines one of the fallacies about running lightweight tyres in a tubeless setup. Yes the tyre may not go flat but this doesn't mean it hasn't been damaged. In order to get a puncture (no matter how small) something has to go through the carcass of the tyre and that usually damages it to some extent.

One of my chums ran schwalbe one tyres (with tubes) one winter and he had a few punctures as you might expect. But the tyres had numerous small cuts in them (many of which didn't result in a puncture) and the carcass was clearly badly damaged; the tyre had many telltale diagonal bulges of the sort which arise when the carcass is failing. The life of these tyres was limited not by tread wear, not by an increasing number of punctures, but by carcass damage. Exactly the same thing would happen if you ran these tyres tubeless.

So one way of looking at it is that with lightweight tyres, punctures are symptomatic of a more serious problem; there is stuff lying in the road that is cutting your tyres up on a regular basis, which can be a much more serious problem than merely whether the tyre happens to hold air or not. Thus running delicate lightweight tyres in the winter still isn't a smart move, tubeless or not; they are still going to be cut to ribbons.

cheers
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Tubeless woes

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 16 Jan 2019, 7:06pm

Hi,
Do what I do, skip trainers still need effort, does it matter what you ride (time and effort is all that is needed).
Save the road bike for the summer :)
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

David Cox
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Location: Birmingham

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby David Cox » 18 Jan 2019, 12:08pm

Thanks as always for a very informative thread thought I'd share my limited experience so far. I got some new wheels for a road bike in May and decided to try tubeless after a friend recommended them.(I don't usually go for innovations - still not got discs). Rims are Mavic open pro and tyres Mavic Yksion PRO UST (Proust?) 700 x25. I do like the ride and they roll well. First rear tyre was replaced under warranty because tread failure. Just separated in little swellings.

Came back after Xmas holiday and one tyre had lost a lot of pressure with sealant failing to fix a c3- 4mm cut. It had finished the ride OK and still held pressure when inflated but sealant still seaped out, more sealant and an effort with superglue didn't hold it either. Decided to get LBS to fit replacement tyre because I didn't have a compressor or an air accumulator. Ben is a great tyre fitter but he had to go to local car tyre place to use their powerful compressor to get the tyre to pop and seal. Cycling Weekly and other commentators seem to think that modern road tubeless systems have solved earlier problems but clearly not in this case. I carry tubes for on road repairs if necessary but doing day rides my main priority is to see minor punctures seal and get home.

BTW I'd been experimenting with pressures down to about 65 psi. as suggested by a friend. Surprised to find when actually looking at the sidewall the recommendation is the narrow range between 72 and 87 psi .

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Brucey » 18 Jan 2019, 12:24pm

you might have been able to get the ~4mm cut to hold air using a tubeless repair kit, i.e. using things that are variously known as 'strings' or 'anchovies'.

However after decades of riding I am pretty confident that (even with minimal tools etc) I will quickly/easily be able to bodge my (tubed) tyres so that I will get home OK even if I have a pretty bad puncture. However I am nothing like as confident that this will be the case with tubeless tyres, almost regardless of the amount of kit carried (which could be a lot more than with a tubed setup).

For many uses possibly no amount of reduction in smaller punctures is a good trade against an occasional 'show stopper' with a tubeless setup. Unfortunately once you have tubeless rims, some problems (like tyres being a tight fit) are with you whether you like it or not, regardless of the tyre type in use.

cheers
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cheesey_rower
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Joined: 18 Jan 2019, 2:11pm

Tubeless tribulations

Postby cheesey_rower » 18 Jan 2019, 2:21pm

hello forum, I am hoping somebody can shed some light.....

First up - I am not total newbie to tubeless - I used to have an MTB and ran tubeless on that. But never on road.

I recently bought some Roval CLX50 wheels and Schwalbe Pro 1 to put on them. The wheels come with the rim sealed and a tubeless valve. The tyre went on easily, and I decided to seat the tyre first before putting any sealant in. Long and the short of it - I cannot get air in as it is hissing out either i) around the tyre near the valve, or ii) around the valve itself. I am using a track pump, I have removed the valve core to see if that helps (it didn't). I tried inflating with a tube in to see if the tyre would seat - then one side would be seated when I took the tube out. The tyre didn't seat with a tube present.

I don't think there is a problem with compatibility - I read a review for the wheels with that combination.

Are Roval tubeless valves duds? Should I get aftermarket valves ? If so anybody recommend 60-70mm valves? I have ordered the Specialized air blaster reservoir in case that will help.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tubeless tribulations

Postby Brucey » 18 Jan 2019, 2:44pm

the way the base of the valve seals against the rim varies; some seat with little force, other won't seal unless you mightily tighten the valve locknut. One would hope that valves that come with rims/wheels would be the former sort but I am not holding my breath.

BTW that the tyres didn't seat when a tube was used is kind of worrying; were you using a lubricant to help things along?

cheers
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cheesey_rower
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Joined: 18 Jan 2019, 2:11pm

Re: Tubeless tribulations

Postby cheesey_rower » 18 Jan 2019, 2:58pm

I didn't use lubricant on this occasion - but I think I will on my next attempt with Specialized blaster thingy when it arrives