I am not a vegan

[Tangled Metal]

There was a documentary on woods last year based on research on an old area of ancient woodland in the UK. IIRC diseases that reach the wood and pass through it got defeated before it reached the other side. What was happening was communication through from one end of the wood to the other. The trees that were dying at the beginning of the outbreak of the disease was passing information to the other trees. This gave the later trees a headstart in their fight against the disease. Eventually enough solutions had been collectively tried to find the one that worked by protecting against the disease.

You been reading Lord of the Rings again?

I seriously doubt if plants can send pheromones - or whatever the right word is - to other plants in their neighbourhood - but then I'm no plant expert, and maybe there are still facts about plant life waiting to be discovered. What I can say is what we observed last year. We often go up Ditchling Beacon (by the footpath, not by bike! ) and the path goes past an environmentally-significant ash grove, about 2Ha in area, an important feature of the local nature reserve. Until last year the wood appeared to be perfectly healthy and thriving. Last summer we went up that path, and alas! every single tree in the wood appeared to be dead - no doubt from the 'ash dieback' disease. If there's 'communication' between those trees, clearly it wasn't working for them....

I should add that we walked that path again much more recently, and there do seem to be some signs of recovery, mainly among saplings. Probably too late to make an impact in my lifetime.

BTW I'm not completely serious about this.

I thought as much.....

Actually the communication thing came from a BBC natural history documentary. The communication is through the roots and specifically the funghi growing in the soil and on the roots. As you probably know the weight of funghi in the soil in woods is about the same as the plants above the surface of the soil I believe was a fact the programme gave. Sounds unbelievable to me but generally BBC nature programmes are fact based.

I'm not serious about the idea science might find plants feel pain in the future. I think that phrase about not being serious was after that idea not the communication bit that was earlier (in that thread or an earlier thread I can't remember).

Nice edit BTW. I'd not like to quote one of my posts without editing neither.

[661-Pete]

Back on topic: I note that the meat industry is getting a bit jumpy - in particular independent 'loose meat' butchers shops afraid of losing business.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... vegan-boom

I have to admit my empathy with these traders is all but non-existent. While, in general, it's the 'right thing' to favour and support the small business competing with the supermarkets, in this case I'd be happy to see butcher's shops consigned to out-of-the-way localities which I never go to.

It's the smell that upsets me. If I walk or cycle past a butchers with its charnel-house odour emanating out onto the street, I find it nauseating. Supermarkets aren't so bad because most of the meat is wrapped, but I still avoid walking down the meat-only aisles. For me it's become a genuine aversion thing. I guess most people aren't affected.

All right. Supposing I don't want to play a part in putting perfectly decent and honest workers and business people out of their livelihoods - but I want to see fewer butchers shops around. For the simple reason that less meat is going to be needed, if perceived trends continue. How to reconcile?

[Cyril Haearn]

Went to a talk about ice production, ice was gathered from ditches and ponds to keep food fresh, then ice machines were invented
The refrigeration industry has a lot to answer for, people get big fridges and cool stuff that can be stored at room temperature unopened
There was a suggestion of a payment to encourage upgrading to modern fridges, people would keep the old one too to keep beer cool in the cellar
Dunno if cold beer tastes better, but there is no need to keep it cool for weeks before use, -1

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Just received email from Boots-

[ThePinkOne]

To take a quote from fossala from the first page in this thread and use it in a different context:-

Put yourselves in the mindset of a vegan. Most, if not all vegans think that killing animals is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....

Fine, if that's the opinion I respct that, but now put yourself in the mindser of a Fruitarian. Most, if not all Fruitarians think that killing plants is wrong and a lot would argue that it's tantamount to murder....

I'm not having a go at fossala or anyone in particular, just interested to know how Vegans and Vegetarians feel when the arguement they use is turned around and used by them and they are accused of killing poor innocent plants.

Plants don't feel pain. They're not sentient beings.

Hmmm, the issue I have with this argument is about indirect killing of animals/other creatures for obtaining human food- it would appear that (some at least of) vegans accept this is OK.

For example. To pollinate almond trees in the USA and to pollinate fruit trees, there is a big industry moving beehives around the place. Truckloads of beehives...... the winter mortality rate of trucked hives is large, so need to be replaced regularly with bees freshly bred. If a grower sprays a bit close to pollination, this can also cause bee death rates to rise. Basically, if you eat almonds or tree-fruit from the USA, bees have been bred/farmed and died to get the fruit to you. In terms of bee death, there's a strong argument (IMO) that honey is much less harmful......

Not sure how widespread this practice of trucking hives about is in UK or EU; probably not much if at all however many beekeepers will (at the request of growers) locate their hives in orchards. I also gather you can buy colonies of bumblebees for glasshouses that grow tomatoes- the buzz pollination is very useful.

So, unless you eat fruit (or almond products) that you know have been pollinated by wild bees, then it's more than likely either that bees have died for you to get that fruit/almond or that farmed bees were used.

Then there's palm oil. Is it OK to indirectly kill orangutans?

If it's not OK for sentient creatures to be farmed and directly killed for human food, presumably it's not OK for bees to be farmed and perish or other creatures to be killed indirectly?

All of which means that being a non-hypocritical vegan is actually something that needs thought. Locally grown produce, in season. A permaculture approach maybe where vegetables and fruits come from the small-scale places like the allotment or local low-intensity orchard where pollination can be achieved by helping the wild populations of pollinators along e.g. by planting food plants for them and not using pesticides.

It is because of this that I find the current evangelical push of veganism from the likes of the Guardian and BBC rather annoying. It's really rather more complicated than it seems to make food choices which don't lead to the death of other creatures.

TPO

[661-Pete]

Hmmm, the issue I have with this argument is about indirect killing of animals/other creatures for obtaining human food- it would appear that (some at least of) vegans accept this is OK......

I think your post can be adequately summed up as - there's no perfect solution, and there's no gain without pain.

I have to admit I cannot answer the question - how do we feed the world without inflicting some suffering on some creatures of this planet - however non-sentient? I don't think that question can be answered.

My plea is more by way of being a compromise than a perfect ethical solution. "Eat less meat". That's it, in three words. The more principled vegans may not like it. I can't please them. But they would be welcome at this house - and could enjoy a vegan repast at our hands (provided we get some warning). We know how to 'do' vegan. We don't know how to keep vegan...

Incidentally the health of bee colonies is very much an issue at 'our' place in France, which is in an area dominated by orchards. We do see plenty of bee species around our own fruit trees - wild ones as well as domestic. Also European hornets, which also play a part in pollinating. But on the other hand, a recent invader, the Asian hornet, which preys on domestic bees, has become a serious pest locally. We had one try to nest in our mailbox - the local Mairie called in pest controllers to deal with it.

You're never going to eliminate the matter of one species killing another species. Planet Earth doesn't work that way....

[Tangled Metal]

I can't work out what veganism really is. I'm certain some go to great pains to avoid products and food that involves harming animals either as direct or indirect product. I also suspect there's people who are more superficial about avoiding harm to animals. I just wonder if being a vegan is just about doing your best in this respect.

I remember seeing a documentary series about animal sources of products must people use without understanding their origins. They showed how leather is produced direct from the slaughter if the cow. Not shown but the general public brought into the show to see his did see the slaughter. They also saw how much of the cow got used (everything I believe).

Another episode showed how popular makeup was made (or the colouring) from the shells of prawns. Or wine additives or...

You get the idea, in our modern era we either eat fauna or we use it to make things we eat, drink or use. Ever since I saw that programme I started to wonder if there are any 100% vegans around or are they just doing their best to be vegans.

[Vorpal]

I know folks who are *extremely* careful not to buy or use anything made from animals.

Health food stores often sell makeup that is made without animal products, or animal testing.

[Oldjohnw]

Pardon my ignorance (I have never looked into veganism: I am mainly vegetarian with a once a week small amount of meat/fish) but what do vegans do for footwear?

[Ben@Forest]

Health food stores often sell makeup that is made without animal products, or animal testing.

That claim can be disingenuous. That company or their contractors may have never tested that product on animals but the raw materials were tested on animals years ago.

So the more accurate claim would be; 'Not tested on animals by us but we know it's safe because it WAS tested on animals (and after that trials on humans).

[Tangled Metal]

I'm not convinced by no animal products. If it isn't direct products then a pre-cursor probably did come from animal sources. When you get fine wines containing or using chemicals derived from animals then something at the lower end of the market such as health food shop makeup is unlikely to be free from animal guilt.

I'm sorry about my cynicism. It's a form of prejudice I have towards hypocrites based on the actions of extreme end of veganism. It spills over into the honest end. If I actually met and got to know more, ordinary vegans I'd probably change my views somewhat. The only vegans I've known were stoners in a uni society. Never harmed anyone out anything but themselves and anyone who stuck their head into their tent, but that's a whole other story and one that left me eating up the contents of the pub salt&vinegar crisps!

PS did see a vegan campaign mini bus pull up at services on the m6 and a bunch of very healthy and active looking individuals got out. They'd taken the last available disabled parking spot on the side of the carpark that the services door is on. That behaviour has always wound me up big time.

[661-Pete]

Pardon my ignorance (I have never looked into veganism: I am mainly vegetarian with a once a week small amount of meat/fish) but what do vegans do for footwear?

Plenty of non-leather footwear around. I'm sure if you called in at your local shoe-shop and asked a few questions, they'd be happy to advise.

[661-Pete]

PS did see a vegan campaign mini bus pull up at services on the m6 and a bunch of very healthy and active looking individuals got out. They'd taken the last available disabled parking spot on the side of the carpark that the services door is on. That behaviour has always wound me up big time.

That's an entirely separate issue - and what was written on the bus is immaterial. I often see what appear to be perfectly able-bodied individuals emerging from a car parked in a 'disabled' slot at our local supermarket (these disabled bays are, conveniently, close to the entrance and also close to the cycle racks ). True, people with a disabled relative do tend to 'borrow' the blue badge even when said relative is not in the car. Also some disabilities are not immediately obvious just by looking at someone.

But sometimes a car without a blue badge pulls in at one of these bays. Now, that is reportable. But I haven't yet done so. The car park is regularly patrolled and one assumes such infractions do get picked up - eventually...

[Oldjohnw]

: Oldjohnw wrote
Pardon my ignorance (I have never looked into veganism: I am mainly vegetarian with a once a week small amount of meat/fish) but what do vegans do for footwear?
Plenty of non-leather footwear around. I'm sure if you called in at your local shoe-shop and asked a few questions, they'd be happy to advise.

But what are they made of? I'm not interested in buying non-leather footwear personally. Just interested intellectually.

[Vorpal]

Health food stores often sell makeup that is made without animal products, or animal testing.

That claim can be disingenuous. That company or their contractors may have never tested that product on animals but the raw materials were tested on animals years ago.

So the more accurate claim would be; 'Not tested on animals by us but we know it's safe because it WAS tested on animals (and after that trials on humans).

That is correct. Many makeup ingredients have in the past been tested on animals. I'm not aware of any companies that sell products made of ingredients that have *never* been tested on animals.

Someone who is serious about this aspect should either go without makeup, or make their own. Plenty of recipes on the internet. IMO, vegans are more likely to do without.