The Science of Cycle Helmet Safety

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 19 Jan 2019, 10:40am

In a word, no.

pete75
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby pete75 » 19 Jan 2019, 1:14pm

pjclinch wrote:
pete75 wrote:
jack1992 wrote:I am looking for a multi impact helmet, i know helmets have came on leaps and bounds, so just wondering if there is anything out there which can take the crashes more then once- as i know it is recommended to replace once you've had a crash


How can any manufacturer claim their helmet can withstand multiple impacts when they have no knowledge of the severity of any impact that helmet sustains in use?


By having some Fine Print under the claim about what values of "Impact" they mean. My camera is "waterproof" and "shockproof", but if I look at the small print it turns out while they're happy to say if I do up the seals properly it will cope with immersion up to 2.5m they won't make that level of claim about dropping it.
My guess would be along the lines of an "impact" being the kind an EN1078 certification says will be dealt with without the helmet failing catastrophically.


Pete.


And of course everyone falling off their bikes knows exactly what that is... :lol:

pwa
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby pwa » 19 Jan 2019, 1:32pm

I have been using a cycle helmet for most of my cycling since the late 1980s, which must mean many thousands of miles. I have taken a good few falls due to ice and other things. But not once have I bashed the helmet. That means two things. Firstly, I could have got away without using one, but that is another debate that is OT. Secondly, at no point have I consigned a helmet to the bin due to impact history. So for me it isn't important whether or not a helmet comes with assurances about fitness to use after an impact.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 19 Jan 2019, 4:04pm

pwa wrote:I have been using a cycle helmet for most of my cycling since the late 1980s, which must mean many thousands of miles. I have taken a good few falls due to ice and other things. But not once have I bashed the helmet. That means two things. Firstly, I could have got away without using one, but that is another debate that is OT. Secondly, at no point have I consigned a helmet to the bin due to impact history. So for me it isn't important whether or not a helmet comes with assurances about fitness to use after an impact.

Have you replaced your h***t/s in that time, how often?
Shoulders are the new helmets, I imagine your shoulders have saved your life many times :)
Nice one Cyrille, nice one son..
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on 49" fixed
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pjclinch
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby pjclinch » 19 Jan 2019, 4:09pm

pete75 wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
pete75 wrote:
How can any manufacturer claim their helmet can withstand multiple impacts when they have no knowledge of the severity of any impact that helmet sustains in use?


By having some Fine Print under the claim about what values of "Impact" they mean. My camera is "waterproof" and "shockproof", but if I look at the small print it turns out while they're happy to say if I do up the seals properly it will cope with immersion up to 2.5m they won't make that level of claim about dropping it.
My guess would be along the lines of an "impact" being the kind an EN1078 certification says will be dealt with without the helmet failing catastrophically.


And of course everyone falling off their bikes knows exactly what that is... :lol:


People ought to know that a bike helmet is designed and specced to mitigate minor injuries in a low-energy fall (e.g., the difference between a Proper Headache and a bump on your head compared to "glad I was wearing my lid"). With the number of people claiming their lives are routinely saved or they'd have fractured their skull numerous times without one I suspect there's quite a lot of people don't know that...

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

pwa
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby pwa » 19 Jan 2019, 4:11pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:
pwa wrote:I have been using a cycle helmet for most of my cycling since the late 1980s, which must mean many thousands of miles. I have taken a good few falls due to ice and other things. But not once have I bashed the helmet. That means two things. Firstly, I could have got away without using one, but that is another debate that is OT. Secondly, at no point have I consigned a helmet to the bin due to impact history. So for me it isn't important whether or not a helmet comes with assurances about fitness to use after an impact.

Have you replaced your h***t/s in that time, how often?
Shoulders are the new helmets, I imagine your shoulders have saved your life many times :)

I replace helmets when they become to smelly.
And yes, shoulders keep your head from hitting the floor if you land on a flat surface. And if that happens, your helmet doesn't take a knock and you have no need to replace it.

pete75
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby pete75 » 20 Jan 2019, 11:04am

pjclinch wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
By having some Fine Print under the claim about what values of "Impact" they mean. My camera is "waterproof" and "shockproof", but if I look at the small print it turns out while they're happy to say if I do up the seals properly it will cope with immersion up to 2.5m they won't make that level of claim about dropping it.
My guess would be along the lines of an "impact" being the kind an EN1078 certification says will be dealt with without the helmet failing catastrophically.


And of course everyone falling off their bikes knows exactly what that is... :lol:


People ought to know that a bike helmet is designed and specced to mitigate minor injuries in a low-energy fall (e.g., the difference between a Proper Headache and a bump on your head compared to "glad I was wearing my lid"). With the number of people claiming their lives are routinely saved or they'd have fractured their skull numerous times without one I suspect there's quite a lot of people don't know that...

Pete.


Yep but they may well not know exactly what constitutes an EN1078 impact particularly if they are shaken up after the incident and can't really remember how hard the impact was. Leaving it up to someone who ought to know what impacts a helmet might sustain without weakening it is not a good idea where so called safety equipment is concerned.
Anyhow my view is that if someone really wants a helmet that may save them from a fractured skull in hardimpact should wear a motorcycle helmet not a polystyrene soup dish.

Brucey
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby Brucey » 20 Jan 2019, 11:28am

a 'polystyrene soup dish' not much different to a cycle helmet can meet all the primary impact tests required for a motorcycle helmet. The main exceptions are that the motorcycle helmet has to cover more of the head (esp at the back of head near the neck) and is also subjected to a 'spike' test which is the equivalent of falling head first from several feet onto an iron railing type spike. You need a hard shell (and/or a major rethink of some kind) to pass the spike test.

IIRC there have for many years been polystyrene helmets (meant for ice hockey?) which meet all the motorcycle requirements bar the spike test. They are (coverage and ventilation being the main differences) very similar to bicycle helmets.

The primary energy absorber inside a motorcycle helmet is (of course) usually polystyrene.

You can judge how big an impact was sustained by how compressed the polystyrene is. It is quite educational to take an old helmet and to hit it with a hammer, spreading the load on the inside with a curved piece of wood and on the outside with a flatter piece of wood. It takes a fairly mighty blow to crush the polystyrene noticeably. I certainly wouldn't want to have my head impacted that hard without something being in the way.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Airsporter1st
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby Airsporter1st » 22 Jan 2019, 8:23pm

Brucey wrote:a 'polystyrene soup dish' not much different to a cycle helmet can meet all the primary impact tests required for a motorcycle helmet. The main exceptions are that the motorcycle helmet has to cover more of the head (esp at the back of head near the neck) and is also subjected to a 'spike' test which is the equivalent of falling head first from several feet onto an iron railing type spike. You need a hard shell (and/or a major rethink of some kind) to pass the spike test.

IIRC there have for many years been polystyrene helmets (meant for ice hockey?) which meet all the motorcycle requirements bar the spike test. They are (coverage and ventilation being the main differences) very similar to bicycle helmets.

The primary energy absorber inside a motorcycle helmet is (of course) usually polystyrene.

You can judge how big an impact was sustained by how compressed the polystyrene is. It is quite educational to take an old helmet and to hit it with a hammer, spreading the load on the inside with a curved piece of wood and on the outside with a flatter piece of wood. It takes a fairly mighty blow to crush the polystyrene noticeably. I certainly wouldn't want to have my head impacted that hard without something being in the way.


cheers


Fortunately, potential assailants carrying a hammer and a flatter piece of wood, remain relatively rare - certainly rare enough that you shouldn't need a helmet.

jack1992
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby jack1992 » 23 Jan 2019, 1:48pm

I guess it is down to personal opinion, if you reckon once your helmet has had a bang/bump and you need to replace it. Also i guess if people done there research into this, i personally find it crazy how in a major crash yes the helmet will be destroyed but more importantly save your life!.

But what you have got to think if you have bumped your helmet hit it around a bit and the out side of the helmet the shell looks okay even if it has a few scratches on, is it still safe to wear even with no visible damage! I know that EPS ( what they make the helmet from) cracks and bubbles even after one knock- yes it may still pass the test of EU standard but if you continue to knock it about even if it is a little drop because it fell of your handle bars or when trying to put it away, it loses its integrity more and more, and this will then end up failing the tests maybe? even though we don't have the equipment to test it every time we drop it- so we never know if our helmet is safe to carry on wearing! (hopefully it is) but if not and then you have a crash which where the helmet does not protect you like it should this can then lead to serious injury - which leads to the question of multi-impact.
Jack1992 is a Support Mangler for Hedkayse. Please treat this post with the contempt it deserves.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 23 Jan 2019, 2:13pm

jack1992 wrote:I guess it is down to personal opinion, if you reckon once your helmet has had a bang/bump and you need to replace it. Also i guess if people done there research into this, i personally find it crazy how in a major crash yes the helmet will be destroyed but more importantly save your life!.

Citation needed...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

jack1992
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby jack1992 » 25 Jan 2019, 11:40am

if you have time please fill this in this promotional survey for Hedkayse << Bull Product >>
Last edited by Graham on 25 Jan 2019, 6:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: You have been rumbled.
Jack1992 is a Support Mangler for Hedkayse. Please treat this post with the contempt it deserves.

pete75
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby pete75 » 25 Jan 2019, 1:02pm

Brucey wrote:a 'polystyrene soup dish' not much different to a cycle helmet can meet all the primary impact tests required for a motorcycle helmet. The main exceptions are that the motorcycle helmet has to cover more of the head (esp at the back of head near the neck) and is also subjected to a 'spike' test which is the equivalent of falling head first from several feet onto an iron railing type spike. You need a hard shell (and/or a major rethink of some kind) to pass the spike test.

IIRC there have for many years been polystyrene helmets (meant for ice hockey?) which meet all the motorcycle requirements bar the spike test. They are (coverage and ventilation being the main differences) very similar to bicycle helmets.

The primary energy absorber inside a motorcycle helmet is (of course) usually polystyrene.

You can judge how big an impact was sustained by how compressed the polystyrene is. It is quite educational to take an old helmet and to hit it with a hammer, spreading the load on the inside with a curved piece of wood and on the outside with a flatter piece of wood. It takes a fairly mighty blow to crush the polystyrene noticeably. I certainly wouldn't want to have my head impacted that hard without something being in the way.

cheers


I look forward to seeing a polystyrene soup dish approved for racing by the ACU. :lol:

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Mick F
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Re: Is there a multi impact helmet?

Postby Mick F » 25 Jan 2019, 2:41pm

jack1992 wrote:if you have time please fill this in https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/8XXRN7S
I tried, but it doesn't work when you say you don't wear one and then it then asks you that if you wore one, when would you wear it.

The survey doesn't work because it assumes you wear a helmet or want to wear a helmet.

I don't wear, nor have I any intention of wearing a cycling helmet.
I used to, but then I realised it's daft to wear one for my riding. If I was in competition, I might consider it.
Mick F. Cornwall

Airsporter1st
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Re: The Science of Cycle Helmet Safety

Postby Airsporter1st » 30 Jan 2019, 4:30pm

geomannie wrote:Hi [XAP]Bob

I pretty much agree with your analysis. The best prevention is to be vigilant, though I have unfortunately had the opportunity to give helmets a serious test on 2 occasions.

Regarding the Headkayse (soft) helmet, I have many questions, including the longevity of the materials. That notwithstanding, I have been sufficiently intrigued to order one and will report back after I have used it for a short while.


Its been a while since you said you would report back - did the helmet fail?