** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[kwackers]

The BBC discusses the tech soln to the border

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47047993

And its conclusion?

"So, at the moment it looks as if there are near no easy solutions - especially one that would be acceptable to the EU, the UK government and the majority of MPs."

Which is pretty much where we were before I read it.

[roubaixtuesday]

Brexit gets less sane with every passing day.

More guessing of opinions of 17.4 million voters?

Natural,

I think it's reasonable to describe where we are now as "insane" without that being an insult to anyone who voted in the original referendum.

We're now in the position where:
- our prime minister first said her deal was the only one possible, then urged parliament to vote against it (!) to enable a renegotiation literally nobody on any side believes will work.
- government ministers are deciding priorities between keeping medicines or food available
- with eight weeks to go, no one has any idea how it will end.

If that's not insane, I don't know what is.

[mjr]

Now that we are so close to falling over a cliff edge in a most remarkable act of national self-harm, I wonder if we might at last get some indication if which of our UK laws were forced upon us, and how at present we are unable to make our own laws.

Which laws were "forced upon us" - just 72 in all these years, according to someone who's done the work to check: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087 ... 80736.html

And of course, they were never "forced upon us": we could have quit any time but the UK government decided to implement them despite its preference because they were decided to be not worth quitting the world's largest free trade area over - or even threatening to - and aiming the blunderbuss of economic damage at our own feet.

[mjr]

Arron Banks companies fined £120,000 for breaches of privacy laws in the way he sloshed supporter and customer details between a Brexit campaign and an insurance business. They've also got an audit to look forwards to. https://news.sky.com/story/leave-campai ... g-11624617 - Is this much different to Tim Martin's political mailshots to Wetherspoons pub customers?

The investigation into his £8million of maybe-illegal possibly-Russian Leave campaign funding rumbles on. Maybe. Or maybe it's been stopped by political pressure. Who knows? No news on that.

[mr bajokoses]

They must be very sure of the benefits. Perhaps mercalia could list some.

Mercalia, have you remembered any yet?

[mercalia]

They must be very sure of the benefits. Perhaps mercalia could list some.

Mercalia, have you remembered any yet?

I want to remain in the EU. I am just worried with all the antics going on in Parliament we will leave on very poor terms eg the backstop is a con. Now its getting to the point where May is bribing labour MPs with money for their constituency

[661-Pete]

The appliance sees the *difference* between the two. 'Cos it's AC, that difference is the same regardless as to which way around the two are wired.

Doesn't affect the way the appliance will run, but not to be recommended on any appliance with a 3-pin plug. Some double-insulated appliances with only a symmetric 2-pin connector (e.g. lawn mowers), it's not possible to control which lead is 'live' - and I don't suppose it matters, they always have a 2-pole on-off switch.

Incidentally, the 'neutral' wire derives from, and is connected to the fourth, neutral wire in 3-phase power distribution, which, if the phases are perfectly balanced, is superfluous since it conducts no current. However, in domestic power supply where each household gets a single phase, it's not possible to get complete phase balance, so the neutral wire is needed. It's usually earthed at the substation. Once the 3-phase is split into single phase, the neutral carries the same current as the live.

This reminds me of the experience of a former colleague which he once related to me. He'd bought an old second-hand record player, and, being a qualified electrical engineer, he thought he'd just take it apart and check it over before using it. He discovered that the appliance, despite having a metal case, had no earth lead: instead, someone had soldered a wire between the neutral supply lead and the casing. Perhaps someone can explain why this made the player a death-trap?

[kwackers]

This reminds me of the experience of a former colleague which he once related to me. He'd bought an old second-hand record player, and, being a qualified electrical engineer, he thought he'd just take it apart and check it over before using it. He discovered that the appliance, despite having a metal case, had no earth lead: instead, someone had soldered a wire between the neutral supply lead and the casing. Perhaps someone can explain why this made the player a death-trap?

In the days of old valve TV's and round 3 pin plugs it was common practice for one side of the supply (usually neutral) to be connected directly to the metal chassis of the TV.
As an 8 year old tinkerer I discovered that shortly before I spotted the little sign that said "Warning Chassis may be Live".

Bet there's an EU law banning that these days...

I also remember trying to explain current flow to someone at school who proclaimed that if a positive earth car touched a negative earth car they'd short out.
He's a leaver btw - make of that what you will.

[Mick F]

.....the neutral carries the same current as the live.

Of course it does ......... it's a circuit.

This reminds me of the experience of a former colleague which he once related to me. He'd bought an old second-hand record player, and, being a qualified electrical engineer, he thought he'd just take it apart and check it over before using it. He discovered that the appliance, despite having a metal case, had no earth lead: instead, someone had soldered a wire between the neutral supply lead and the casing. Perhaps someone can explain why this made the player a death-trap?

In itself, it wouldn't be.

The whole idea of a good earth-point, is that any short to earth would go directly into the ground, and not into the ground via your body.

Neutral shorted to earth isn't dangerous unless you have another fault or a connection issue somewhere else at the same time.

[kwackers]

Neutral shorted to earth isn't dangerous unless you have another fault or a connection issue somewhere else at the same time.

I had a earth neutral to fault on my house last year.

Couldn't figure it out. The RCD tripped, so I tried to reset it and it wouldn't, turned off circuits one by one looking for the fault and in the end had to turn them all off.
Turning a circuit on randomly worked, such that I could often get nearly all of them back on before it tripped and even then turning an appliance on randomly tripped it again.

I'd never encountered such a fault before and I was flummoxed, so I called an electrician. Took them two hours before they discovered an old heater socket behind a fitted wardrobe that someone had badly disconnected (i.e simply cut the cable).

[bovlomov]

This reminds me of the experience of a former colleague which he once related to me. He'd bought an old second-hand record player, and, being a qualified electrical engineer, he thought he'd just take it apart and check it over before using it. He discovered that the appliance, despite having a metal case, had no earth lead: instead, someone had soldered a wire between the neutral supply lead and the casing. Perhaps someone can explain why this made the player a death-trap?

I was once asked by a friend to look at a welder that wasn't working. It turned out to be a 2 Phase machine. The person who had installed it, looking in vain for a place to put his third conductor, used the earth connection instead.

On the subject of UK and rEU plugs - perhaps it's prejudice, but I'm sure ours are better than theirs.

[661-Pete]

This reminds me of the experience of a former colleague which he once related to me. He'd bought an old second-hand record player, and, being a qualified electrical engineer, he thought he'd just take it apart and check it over before using it. He discovered that the appliance, despite having a metal case, had no earth lead: instead, someone had soldered a wire between the neutral supply lead and the casing. Perhaps someone can explain why this made the player a death-trap?

In itself, it wouldn't be.

The whole idea of a good earth-point, is that any short to earth would go directly into the ground, and not into the ground via your body.

Neutral shorted to earth isn't dangerous unless you have another fault or a connection issue somewhere else at the same time.

OK: I'll explain. If the appliance is switched on, and the plug is partially pulled out such that the neutral pin breaks contact first but the live pin doesn't, the casing will now be at full live potential. If you touch the casing and something earthed, your body will complete the circuit between live and earth. Draw a diagram if you don't believe me.

At least, this was how my colleague explained it to me...

In the days of old valve TV's and round 3 pin plugs it was common practice for one side of the supply (usually neutral) to be connected directly to the metal chassis of the TV.
As an 8 year old tinkerer I discovered that shortly before I spotted the little sign that said "Warning Chassis may be Live".

I remember that too. My father used to tinker with our old B&W valve-based TV, and I remember the warning label. He claimed he could withstand a shock at full mains voltage, but I don't know if he was bragging.

Admittedly, this 'live chassis' was always completely enclosed in the TV's (usually wooden) cabinet, and couldn't be touched during normal operation.

[661-Pete]

Incidentally, nice to have a little diversion from that hoary old topic, the subject of this thread....

[Mick F]

Thread drift?
Wonderful!!

On the subject of UK and rEU plugs - perhaps it's prejudice, but I'm sure ours are better than theirs.

They are. It's a fact.

The main good point about ours is that the live and neutral holes aren't exposed. The shutter system opens them when the long earth pin goes in. The Continental sockets are open holes.
Another good point is the size and cross-sectional area of the conductor pins and earth pin. The Continental ones are just thin circular pins.

Neutral shorted to earth isn't dangerous unless you have another fault or a connection issue somewhere else at the same time.

OK: I'll explain. If the appliance is switched on, and the plug is partially pulled out such that the neutral pin breaks contact first but the live pin doesn't, the casing will now be at full live potential. If you touch the casing and something earthed, your body will complete the circuit between live and earth. Draw a diagram if you don't believe me..

Of course I believe you. I am - or was - an electronics and electrical engineer.
Like I said, "Neutral shorted to earth isn't dangerous unless you have another fault or a connection issue somewhere else at the same time."

Half pulling the plug out is a "connection issue". There are many other connection issues you could have as well.
Also, if the cassis was correctly earthed, you wouldn't be electrocuted, it's just the fuse or the trip that would go.

[PDQ Mobile]

Thread drift?
Wonderful!!

On the subject of UK and rEU plugs - perhaps it's prejudice, but I'm sure ours are better than theirs.

They are. It's a fact.

The main good point about ours is that the live and neutral holes aren't exposed. The shutter system opens them when the long earth pin goes in. The Continental sockets are open holes.
Another good point is the size and cross-sectional area of the conductor pins and earth pin. The Continental ones are just thin circular pins.

There are differences depending on where on "the Continent" you go.
Some places have gated plugs.
Some places only have around a 10 amp supply but, and it's a big but, 3 phase power if often readily available.
For driving motors 3 phase is much better and more efficient.
And in my view electricity (2 or 3 phase) is much better/ more efficient at driving motors than making heat.

A lot of modern appliances don't need an earth being "double" insulated so two round pins suffice and the polarity is of no consequence.

I personally do prefer UK plugs but both systems have plusses and minuses.