dodger wrote:There are similarities between some comments on this forum and the hardline comments from Trump about his Mexican neighbours. Try and remember how savvy you were at 15.
Nope. Searched my memory but the 15 year old me wasn't even thinking about traveling to a far off country to join a terrorist organisation.
If this woman arrives at Calais or persuades an airline to carry her to the UK then as a UK citizen we'll probably have let her in (and maybe prosecute her). I don't see any requirement to go to Syria to collect her. She got herself there, getting back is her problem.
dodger wrote:There are similarities between some comments on this forum and the hardline comments from Trump about his Mexican neighbours. Try and remember how savvy you were at 15.
Nope. Searched my memory but the 15 year old me wasn't even thinking about traveling to a far off country to join a terrorist organisation.
If this woman arrives at Calais or persuades an airline to carry her to the UK then as a UK citizen we'll probably have let her in (and maybe prosecute her). I don't see any requirement to go to Syria to collect her. She got herself there, getting back is her problem.
+1 ... the 15 year old me was living in a terrorist war ... and still didn't think about joining any of the local terrorist organisations. Could have walked out the front door and joined them, never mind flying to Syria .... Leave her .....
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
dodger wrote: We are a so-called christian nation so let's see some christianity or just old-fashioned tolerance .
Aren't christianity & tolerance very different concepts?
It depends on the sort/brand of Christianity, There are some pretty extreme forms of Christianity,as much as there are of Islam.Some branches of both religions are forward and outward looking,and very tolerant realising some of their 'holy scriptures' are so holy after all and ammending their outlook and attitude toward those outside of their belief systems. ISIS OTOH is a narrow stern and evil strain of Islam with ideas from dark ages,but let's not forget what gave birth to the popularity of it's existence.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
irc wrote:Nope. Searched my memory but the 15 year old me wasn't even thinking about traveling to a far off country to join a terrorist organisation.
Nor me,but then I didn't have a strict religious or extremist upbringing.
If this woman arrives at Calais or persuades an airline to carry her to the UK then as a UK citizen we'll probably have let her in (and maybe prosecute her). I don't see any requirement to go to Syria to collect her. She got herself there, getting back is her problem.
IMO no one's life should be put at risk to ensure her return,that said there's the possibility that this young woman's experiences could be an asset in the fight against such terrorists groups should she be willing to reject their extreme view of the world,and her unborn child has committed no crime.
landsurfer wrote: ... the 15 year old me was living in a terrorist war ... and still didn't think about joining any of the local terrorist organisations. Could have walked out the front door and joined them, never mind flying to Syria .... Leave her .....
You had more sense and I'm guessing guiding figures in your life that taught against such actions,not everyone is blessed with such an upbringing,in fact some are taught the exact opposite from a very young age,otherwise there's be no terrorists,but it doesn't mean such people are beyond redemption.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
dodger wrote: We are a so-called christian nation so let's see some christianity or just old-fashioned tolerance .
Aren't christianity & tolerance very different concepts?
I looked up religion stats to see if the UK read still a Christian nation. I don't know anyone who practises Christianity anymore, at most they claim Christianity but don't do anything about it. If asked on a census what religion then when I was younger a lot of people I know would put CofE as a default but they really had no real belief.
So the most recent poll that I found was published last year by Populus based on 29,000 respondents in the last 6 months of 2017. 50% Christian and 41% no religion. Other surveys going back to 2000s all had the figures at below 50%. Personally I don't see the UK as a Christian nation anymore. We're evolving!
One article from early 2018 in the guardian said religion is dropping among 17 to 29 year olds. Then 6 months later the same paper said that religion was growing among the same age group. Is that common for individual newspapers to give opposing views that close to each other?
Plus it doesn't take Christianity to be compassionate to someone else's difficult situation. That's such an old fashioned view to think religion gives you the tendency to think of others.
reohn2 wrote:You had more sense and I'm guessing guiding figures in your life that taught against such actions,not everyone is blessed with such an upbringing,in fact some are taught the exact opposite from a very young age,otherwise there's be no terrorists,but it doesn't mean such people are beyond redemption.
Good point. I had a close family member who was deeply involved with the Loyalist Paramilitaries, he lectured me many times about not following his path.
I went the other way, i joined the armed forces, because I believed it was the right thing to do ...
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
landsurfer wrote:......... i joined the armed forces, because I believed it was the right thing to do ...
This misguided young woman -no more than a girl at the time- did exactly the same thing at the time,but chose the wrong path.But for all we know she bitterly regrets it,OTOH she may still think it was the right thing to do. If she returns she'll no doubt face the consequences but her unborn child shouldn't,as it is innocent.
Last edited by reohn2 on 17 Feb 2019, 9:28am, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
I think many on here feel that there will be no consequences. The liberal left will be all over her, telling us how she is a poor victim of western life etc etc ... Her concern for her innocent newborn did not extend to any of the victims of her chosen way of life ... And i wonder how many of us she will regard as an "enemy of Islam" as she regarded the severed head in the bin ?
No .. I dont want her back here among my family.. I'll leave it there ...
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
landsurfer wrote:I think many on here feel that there will be no consequences. The liberal left will be all over her, telling us how she is a poor victim of western life etc etc ...
I disagree totally.
Her concern for her innocent newborn did not extend to any of the victims of her chosen way of life ..
In any war,legitimate or otherwise it is a consequence of such conflict,it's what makes the them and us of war such a failure of humanity.
And i wonder how many of us she will regard as an "enemy of Islam" as she regarded the severed head in the bin ?
My take on it is that where she is currently she has to be very careful what she says as it could cost her and her unborn child their lives.She has already lost two children not to mention what else she's witnessed whilst among the regeme,and she she is only 19,the devastation to her mental health is no doubt catastrophic after the safety and stability of an upbringing in UK society. That's why I'm not so quick to judge her.
No .. I dont want her back here among my family.. I'll leave it there ...
But even if she returns,will she ever be back among your family?
Last edited by reohn2 on 17 Feb 2019, 9:43am, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
If genuinely held, I suspect that there would be a few ( or more ) persons in UK who would like to cause her some discomfort, if she appeared back here.
It seems our system will try to protect her from such threats : identity change : safe houses : protection staff in attendance . . . . . . at our ( taxpayers ) cost. The "no regrets" provocation might serve her self-interest rather well, with an interesting double whammy that we all end up paying for it.
Life is complicated - no wonder the citizens are revolting.
Graham wrote: ......Life is complicated - no wonder the citizens are revolting.
Life is perhaps too complicated for some who only ever see black or white in any given situation,the extreme elements of society and religion are riven with that kind of outlook. A little fear can be a good thing but when it rules life totally,and more so an afterlife belief,it can be a ruination of the present.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Press reports say the child has been born. Does this child hold the nationality of the mother (British), father (Dutch) or place of birth? Again a real question because I do not know how these things work.
tatanab wrote:Press reports say the child has been born. Does this child hold the nationality of the mother (British), father (Dutch) or place of birth? Again a real question because I do not know how these things work.
None until it’s registered, but it potentially has the right to all 3, under international law.
Despite her awful beliefs and support for IS and the appalling atrocities it has committed, given the subservient/domestic role required of women by the form of Islam promoted by IS, I suspect she probably did not have an active direct role in such atrocities. She is probably guilty of encouraging, supporting and inciting others, but as a teenage girl/woman her influence was probably negligible, except maybe as a Lady Macbeth type influence on her own husband.
Under the circumstances it's interesting and somewhat odd that this young woman and her now newborn baby have generated such strong sentiments in the press and in public debate (such as in this thread). It seems to me that a lot more attention and opprobrium is being directed towards her than the two surviving members of the 'Jihadi Beatles', who butchered innocent civilians, including the humanitarian aid workers David Haines and Alan Henning.
Maybe that's because as far as most people are concerned those two individuals do not present any moral or ethical dilemma in the way that the young woman and her baby do, i.e. they are beyond redemption and most people would not be bothered if they were summarily executed by their Kurdish captors, or extradited to the USA, tried and convicted and sentenced to death. Indeed that would save the UK a major headache compared with having to deal with them if they were returned to the UK, given the likely problems involved in trying them in the UK because of the difficulty and high cost of gathering the necessary evidence for the prosecution (probably especially so if intelligence sources and methods are not to be revealed).
And maybe there's more to it than that, and she is being singled out for particular villification because she is a young woman and a mother.
At the end of the day the UK will probably have to permit re-entry to at least some of its citizens who went to fight for IS, and the big question will be how those dangerous individuals are dealt with, given that there are likely similarly to be difficulties with prosecuting them. If they are not convicted of a crime then it will be much harder to manage them, as demonstrated by the past problems for the Government in the courts of using the various forms of 'Control Orders' on UK citizens who have not been found guilty of any crime, and the difficulties for the Security Services of monitoring such individuals.
In the meantime, lots of people are getting righteous and vociferous about a young woman who probably presents little or no threat, and who I think does not not deserve or warrant the attention, and who should simply be ignored and forgotten about unless and until she presents herself at a British Consulate.
Last edited by slowster on 17 Feb 2019, 4:04pm, edited 4 times in total.
slowster wrote:<SNIP - why bother quoting the whole post immediately above. ?>
SHE WAS ONLY 15. She probably spent most of her time caring for her children and doing what the men, including her husband, told her. All the vitriol might be better directed at the odious right wing extremists that permeate parts of our society. The threat from them is real, not imagined and it seems to me people like Trump and Farage simply demonize immigrants and people who are different to them purely as a political tool. What they do is end up encouraging violence and hatred and pretend that it is patriotism.
Last edited by Graham on 17 Feb 2019, 5:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:another wasted quotation
