RD for 105 / DA groupset

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fredN4
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Joined: 14 Oct 2012, 8:21pm

Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby fredN4 » 14 Mar 2019, 9:30am

I am coming round to the idea of fitting a 36 cassette. wait with anticipation the source of a 12 or 13-36 cassette!

Brucey
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby Brucey » 14 Mar 2019, 10:24am

geocycle wrote:This is a really interesting if very complicated thread! So I have an 11 speed 105 groupset with 50-34 at the front and 11-32 at the back. I'm not entirely sure which rear105 derailleur. The 11 tooth sprocket is an ornament in the Lake District and a 34 or even 36 tooth sprocket on the cassette would be much more useful. Any suggestions which cassette and which derailleur I would need? Is there a list somewhere?


This is probably best addressed in a separate thread, in that although the problems appear similar, there is very little commonality between 11s and 10s stuff, so the solutions are a bit different.

cheers
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Brucey
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby Brucey » 14 Mar 2019, 10:38am

fredN4 wrote:I am coming round to the idea of fitting a 36 cassette. wait with anticipation the source of a 12 or 13-36 cassette!


I'm not sure there is any such thing in 10s. 11-36 is a standard ratio, and CS-HG50-10 is made up of loose sprockets with rivets (and no carriers) but I'm not sure how you would make a good 12- or 13- cassette from one;

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-HG50-10-3767A.pdf

the standard ratios are 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby Mick F » 14 Mar 2019, 2:36pm

Brucey wrote:the standard ratios are 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Silly ratios IMHO and why I've not changed my cassette for a wider ratio one.
The jump from 11 to 13 is massive, and 13 to 15 is still too big.

Cassettes should ideally form an increasing curve when looked at from the side, not a cone.
That one does 2-2-2-2-3-4-4-4


Should do 1-1-1-2-2-3-3-4-4 (for instance) ........ but that will only take you to 32t :oops:
Complicated and personal subject! :lol:

Moulton 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28 Shimano 105
Mercian 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30 Campag Centaur
Note the single tooth differences at the small end.
Mick F. Cornwall

thelawnet
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby thelawnet » 14 Mar 2019, 2:38pm

Brucey wrote:
fredN4 wrote:I am coming round to the idea of fitting a 36 cassette. wait with anticipation the source of a 12 or 13-36 cassette!


I'm not sure there is any such thing in 10s.


SRAM make a 12-36.

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sra ... -prod55198

It's a slightly higher-end cassette than HG50, using a spider for the 3 largest cogs.

The cogs are

12,13,15,17,19,22,25,28,32,36

This is versus

11,13,15,17,19,22,25,28,32,36 for their 11-36

so SRAM use 19-22-25-28, and Shimano 19-21-24-28

Shimano sell arbitrary top cogs (11-16t inclusive) with integrated spacers, for their 6600 cassette

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-6600-2370.pdf

This would make any top cog quite easy (I am not sure if you can go without these using separate spacers and standard cogs) e.g., 14t https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/s ... -1zd-1400d

I'm not sure there is any such thing in 10s. 11-36 is a standard ratio, and CS-HG50-10 is made up of loose sprockets with rivets (and no carriers)


Not so. Shimano have been quite naughty with their 10-speed cassettes.

Essentially it is practice that everything above Deore/Tiagra uses carrier for the largest cogs. Deore/Tiagra and below generally don't use them

The first release at Deore/Tiagra 10 speed level was Tiagra CS-4600 which didn't use carriers.

The next year they brought out Deore 10-speed which did. At that point:

M771-10 (XT) with the top 6 cogs on 2 carriers of 3 cogs each
HG81-10 (SLX) with the top 3 cogs on a carrier
HG62-10 (Deore) with the top 2 cogs on a carrier (the 9-speed generation HG61-9 didn't use carriers, even with the same top cog)
4600 (Tiagra) with no carrier

HG50-9 is & was Alivio and does not use a carrier.

They then decided to rename HG62-10 11-36t to HG50-10 11-36t.

So at this point you had HG62-10 with a carrier and combinations 11-32, 11-34, 11-36, the latter also being known as HG50-10.

They then decided that 11-32 and 11-34 were also road combinations, and brought out Tiagra 4700, which would support them.

Since there was no functional difference between a 11-32 'road' and 11-32 'mountain' cassette, rather than call the new cassette CS-4700, they called it HG500-10. And it didn't use carriers. This allowed them to stop selling HG62-10 altogether, in favour of the cheaper carrierless HG500-10.

Because HG500-10 was in effect CS-4700, they didn't bother to make a 'mountain' 11-36 ratio for it.

So they had

HG50-10 with a 32-36 carrier
HG500-10 - with no carrier in road, and 'crossover' 11-32 and 11-34 ratios

But then they realised the market wanted a dinner-plate cassette, and came out with an 11-42t Deore cassette.

This was obviously massively heavy so they came up with a new design a carrier but I think in a different design, so it's nothing like the HG62-10. They decided to call this HG500-10 as well.

So the current state of play in terms of 36t cogs is that you can get a 32-36t unit from a Deore-level cassette, or a 28-32-36t cassette from an SLX or XT level unit. But there aren't any loose 36t cogs, though you could probably buy a third party one.

You can buy individual 28-32-36 sprocket units

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... -10-633448

Or buy an HG50/HG62 11-36 cassette and take it apart and use the 32-36 unit from that. Or probably find some third party 36t cog.

A 28-32-36 unit is going to expect a 24t before it, and a 32-36t a 28t before it. All 28t 10 speed sprockets should be ramped for a following 32t.

Hence:

HG500-10 12-28
12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28
- 12-13-14
+14 spacer type
+ 32-36 (from HG50/62-10)
=
14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28-32-36

CS5700/6700 11-28
11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28
- 11-12-13
+13 spacer type
+ 32-36
=
13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Last edited by thelawnet on 14 Mar 2019, 2:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brucey
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby Brucey » 14 Mar 2019, 2:42pm

personal preference I know but 1T intervals are only for racing. Wanting to have a 12T inbetween 11T and 13T is for most people just daft; you are only going to be using any of them when going downhill anyway; normally there are other, more useful, sprockets you could have instead.

FWIW wherever you have a mixture of 1T and 2T intervals you are doomed to have gear intervals that are all over the place. For touring, I can only describe this as 'orrible...

cheers
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fredN4
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby fredN4 » 14 Mar 2019, 7:12pm

just to throw a cat amongst...........
there is a Time Edge going locally with Ultegra 18 speed groupset. Since I already have two Times I am intertested. Do I still buy a 9 speed MTB rear mech to allow use of a 34 cassette? Same cable pull?
Thank in advance
Fred

fredN4
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Joined: 14 Oct 2012, 8:21pm

Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby fredN4 » 14 Mar 2019, 7:21pm

sorry , final point this evening.
The Time I have found is not running a compact chainset. But I have a spare 11 speed Ultegra compact FC6800. Would this work OK with 9 speed chain and cassette?
Bon nuit

Brucey
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby Brucey » 14 Mar 2019, 7:25pm

you may need to space the chainrings very slightly if you use a 9s chain on an 11s chainset.

cheers
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fredN4
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Joined: 14 Oct 2012, 8:21pm

Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby fredN4 » 14 Mar 2019, 7:45pm

Thanks Brucey
guess I could use a 10 speed chaine?
Will the MTB chain pull be the same for 9 or 10 speed ultegra?

Brucey
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby Brucey » 14 Mar 2019, 7:56pm

fredN4 wrote:Will the MTB chain pull be the same for 9 or 10 speed ultegra?


eh?

10s chain will probably work Ok BTW

cheers
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The utility cyclist
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby The utility cyclist » 15 Mar 2019, 1:16pm

geocycle wrote:This is a really interesting if very complicated thread! So I have an 11 speed 105 groupset with 50-34 at the front and 11-32 at the back. I'm not entirely sure which rear 105 derailleur. The 11 tooth sprocket is an ornament in the Lake District and a 34 or even 36 tooth sprocket on the cassette would be much more useful. Any suggestions which cassette and which derailleur I would need? Is there a list somewhere?


The rear derailleur will be marked and the difference between the short cage and medium cage is fairly obvious https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-SS.html and https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-GS.html Given bike manufacturers aren't going to put a combination together outside the spec as stock I would say you've got the GS.
So, you could buy a cassette and see if the your existing RD will work with maybe a tweak with the B screw.

OR you could buy a R7000 GS which accepts a 34T sprocket as spec and works with the previous 11 speed 105 STIs, so the R7000 might accept a 36T but you'd have to look around to see if people have done that.

You could go the sub compact chainset route but this is usually fairly spendy.
Last edited by The utility cyclist on 15 Mar 2019, 7:12pm, edited 1 time in total.

fredN4
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Joined: 14 Oct 2012, 8:21pm

Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby fredN4 » 15 Mar 2019, 5:38pm

bought the Time this morning. Fitted my "eleven speed" Ultegra compact. Works fine with the 9 speed cassette.
12-36 Shimano cassette, chain and XT RD M772 on order.
Thanks again to all.

willem jongman
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby willem jongman » 17 Mar 2019, 11:16am

Would the SUNXCD SXRD34M rear derailleur not be the perfect solution for just this problem? http://sunxcd.net/rearder

gxaustin
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Re: RD for 105 / DA groupset

Postby gxaustin » 18 Mar 2019, 11:22am

You could use a Shimano rd350 10sp derailer (viewtopic.php?t=85155). It has a capacity up to 34t on the cassette.
You could also reduce the 50t chainwheel to 48t or 46t, if worried by chain wrap, as you would if using a dropper link. This has the advantage of a lesser jump between chainwheels. Mind you if using a 46t it could be wise to get a cyclocross FD or it will be difficult to get the FD cage close to the chainwheel.