pwa wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:He's off your Christmas card list this year, then?
I'm taking my JRM poster down off the wall in the light of these revelations.
Wot to throw the darts at then then? I have suggestions!
Cugel
pwa wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:He's off your Christmas card list this year, then?
I'm taking my JRM poster down off the wall in the light of these revelations.
mjr wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:3. Everyone went into it with the clear understanding it was binding
Myth! See attached. I know what Cameroon's leaflet said, but that leaflet is itself not binding!
Oldjohnw wrote:his well suited Savelle row exterior
Open to dispute.
Bonefishblues wrote:mjr wrote:It'll have to wait until I'm on a bigger screen than aphone at a coffee sstop!
The population thought that it was voting and that their decision was binding, that's my point, irrespective of the "small print" which is now being referenced.
pwa wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:He's off your Christmas card list this year, then?
I'm taking my JRM poster down off the wall in the light of these revelations.
mjr wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:mjr wrote:It'll have to wait until I'm on a bigger screen than aphone at a coffee sstop!
The population thought that it was voting and that their decision was binding, that's my point, irrespective of the "small print" which is now being referenced.
I think that's revisionism or retcon. The advisory nature of it was well publicised.
Of course, this means Mr Cameron should be jailed alongside Boris, Farage et al for lying campaign materials.
Bonefishblues wrote:The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted.
roubaixtuesday wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted.
As a convinced remainer, I agree with you.
What I don't agree with is that democracy is a single event.
We now have a position that what is proposed - May's "deal" - is demonstrably very far from what the leave campaign promised. Practically no-one from that campaign supports it. Likewise almost no one from the remain campaign.
So it's fair to say that we have now demonstrated that the "will of the people" cannot actually be enacted.
In those circumstances, I still don't think it's right to just revoke A50. But I don't see anything anti- democratic about a confirmatory referendum.
Indeed, in my view, most of those against it oppose it not on principle, but on fear of losing it.
Bonefishblues wrote:It's unusual to find a post I agree with in pretty much every respect. I feel I should find something to carp about, as is the traditional way hereabouts
roubaixtuesday wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:It's unusual to find a post I agree with in pretty much every respect. I feel I should find something to carp about, as is the traditional way hereabouts
Right, our work here is done.
But I like a challenge, how about we go off to the helmet ghetto and spread compromise, peace and mutual understanding there too?
roubaixtuesday wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted.
As a convinced remainer, I agree with you.
What I don't agree with is that democracy is a single event.
We now have a position that what is proposed - May's "deal" - is demonstrably very far from what the leave campaign promised. Practically no-one from that campaign supports it. Likewise almost no one from the remain campaign.
So it's fair to say that we have now demonstrated that the "will of the people" cannot actually be enacted.
In those circumstances, I still don't think it's right to just revoke A50. But I don't see anything anti- democratic about a confirmatory referendum.
Indeed, in my view, most of those against it oppose it not on principle, but on fear of losing it.
Bonefishblues wrote:mjr wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:The population thought that it was voting and that their decision was binding, that's my point, irrespective of the "small print" which is now being referenced.
I think that's revisionism or retcon. The advisory nature of it was well publicised.
Of course, this means Mr Cameron should be jailed alongside Boris, Farage et al for lying campaign materials.
Yep, got it, I remember all the politicians mentioned that now you say it. Nigel 'Advisory' Garage, Boris 'Tell us what you think' Johnson, Call me Dave 'Best of Two, or Three, or as many as it takes' Cameron.
No, I have a clear recollection of events, thanks. The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted. That's the point I am making. I'm making no comment on its legal status, and whether that was or wasn't known, and how widely.
But assuming that you are correct, perhaps others on the Forum can confirm that I am deluded and that they didn't have that expectation?
mjr wrote:Bonefishblues wrote:mjr wrote:I think that's revisionism or retcon. The advisory nature of it was well publicised.
Of course, this means Mr Cameron should be jailed alongside Boris, Farage et al for lying campaign materials.
Yep, got it, I remember all the politicians mentioned that now you say it. Nigel 'Advisory' Garage, Boris 'Tell us what you think' Johnson, Call me Dave 'Best of Two, or Three, or as many as it takes' Cameron.
No, I have a clear recollection of events, thanks. The population went to vote in the clear understanding that the result would be enacted. That's the point I am making. I'm making no comment on its legal status, and whether that was or wasn't known, and how widely.
But assuming that you are correct, perhaps others on the Forum can confirm that I am deluded and that they didn't have that expectation?
They don't seem to be answering, so I'll challenge your recollection with academics noting in Jan 2016 "strictly speaking, it has no legal effect. It will be purely advisory and, in law, the government could simply ignore the result. In this it contrasts with the legislation for the electoral system referendum in 2011, which required the minister responsible to enact the result" (another legal expert wrote similar in the FT around that time but it's paywalled) and by the vote several newspapers and even, grudgingly, well down the page, the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation had reported it would be advisory.
Vote Leave's notorious Dominic Cummings relied on its advisory nature when arguing for people to vote Leave so the UK could get concessions from the EU and then hold another "referendum on the final terms of Brexit, if the first vote is for Out".
So I think it was well known but maybe not mentioned that much by politicians because firstly, people would ask them why they were keeping the final decision power, and hey, everyone thought Remain would win, so it was pretty irrelevant.
But anyway, if it had been binding, the disenfranchised UK citizens would have won their court case already and thrown the result out anyway!