My Lidl helmet - and fall

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
landsurfer
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby landsurfer » 26 Mar 2019, 9:08am

mjr wrote:
willcee wrote:Always wear a helmet, better half has had Brain surgery,not an injury from any accident , your head is one area you don't want to take chances with.. watching her recover from a severe vasospasm, induced as a result of the deep surgery..I never leave without it...and it has saved me several times. will

And there is the central absurdity: if us normal riders were dying at the rate that users claim to have been saved, we'd have died out by now and the debate would be over!

I don't want to risk a neck injury or unnecessary head strike, so I'm not taking the chance of strapping a voluminous weight to the top of my head.


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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Steady rider » 26 Mar 2019, 9:12am

willcee thanks for the details.
In the old days bottom bracket height were about 10.5 inch from the ground, now in most cases a little higher. This results in the seat being higher.
I often swing the leg forward to cross the top tube, not over the saddle, that is higher.
Moving with one foot on the pedal is not my normal practice, less control when setting off.
Your view on helmets is quite understanding but in fact there is considerable research showing they may reduce overall safety.

see http://www.cycle-helmets.com/zealand_helmets.html the table refers to a 121% increase.

Evaluating cycling fatality risk with a focus on cycle helmet use
http://worldtransportjournal.com/wp-con ... 4.4opt.pdf

The fatality paper shows helmets may not save lives in general and NZ and other data shows they result in a higher accident rate.
In addition helmet promotion, largely based on opinions and poor research, can result in social issues, less accident compensation for non-wearers, coercion to wear them discouraging cycling and has even resulted in people having to change jobs.

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willcee
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby willcee » 26 Mar 2019, 10:33pm

I wouldn't ever be a die hard pro cycle helmet guy, I rode motorcycles, raced cars and Rallied for years, been in high speed smacks, one where my full face helmet was dragging up a stone wall having gone through the side window in a semi works TR7 V8 Away over 100mph before the rear axle location bars broke after a hard landing on tarmac, steering the car into said wall. and walked away.. so I appreciate the value personally.. each to his own, experiences have pushed my wearing, and have done since I remounted on 2 wheels over 20 years since, that said I had many offs as a young boy needing A&E once for a lacerated knee and a few stitches, my father in attendance, he had ridden motorcyles in his youth and crashed a few times unhurt mostly wearing a leather helmet like the WW1 pilots.. so if you like the wind in your hair, feel free, I do, still with a good head of hair but only wafting free on quiet roads on very hot summer days.. will

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Cunobelin
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Cunobelin » 27 Mar 2019, 6:39am

willcee wrote:About 60 odd years ago when being instructed by my Father, I was taught to mount from the left side, left foot on left pedal ,run the bike forward and mount while moving throwing the right leg over the frame behind the saddle.. I probably did this for some years, he , my father was a strict teacher and every spring and summer evening back in those far off days my brother and I aged 7/8 and 5/6 were instructed religiously in road traffic manners on the quiet country roads near our home, until he felt we were no danger to ourselves or traffic.. it worked we never had any incidents with traffic, yes we fell off, but it took the worry out of his head that he had taught us the correct way, he was the same with firearms..
These days, well in the past 6 years with hip issues I always mount from the right side, doing exactly what that chap in the video does.. bring the bike down, and mount at the lower position..Total Hip Relacement last Oct, left leg, afterwards I took it really easy , had to..and still mount right side, but holding a 45lb E bike at that angle is not as easy as on a 18lb lightweight, for me its manageable, and worked for me.. before the op I had issues while mounting and dismounting, nothing while cycling, except no standing up pedaling..
Always wear a helmet, better half has had Brain surgery,not an injury from any accident , your head is one area you don't want to take chances with.. watching her recover from a severe vasospasm, induced as a result of the deep surgery..I never leave without it...and it has saved me several times. will

You have every right to wear a helmet, but the question will always be why just on a bike.

For anyone overly 60, the most likely scenario is a fall whilst walking, climbing stairs, or manoeuvres such as getting into the bath. Ones were decreased mobility, flexibility and coordination are an issue.

It always seems bizarre that we have advocated for safer activities, yet the real risk areas - not wearing a helmet is acceptable.

BY all means, do your own risk assessments, but be informed and realistic

thelawnet
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby thelawnet » 27 Mar 2019, 4:44pm

thelawnet wrote:
gaz wrote:
thelawnet wrote:... the local CTC group had some sort of motion about compelling helmets. I think this may have fallen by the wayside for whatever reason ...

The compelling reason that this will have fallen by the wayside is that it is against Cycling UK policy for a Cycling UK group to have an overt mandatory helmet policy.


The full reasoning:

"He reported to the AGM the vast majority of the 32 respondents favoured the wearing of helmets and about half favoured mandatory wearing of helmets. The committee therefore decided to strongly recommend wearing of helmets."

"No action was proposed by the committee on making helmets mandatory.
Subsequently, CUK was contacted and has advised that the group could not mandate the wearing of helmets as it was not CUK policy."


Slightly unexpected update on this, I went out with them this morning, turned up at the start, and bloke says to me 'Are you going to get a helmet?' Me: 'No.' He: 'No?!? I'm leading the ride next week, you'll have to.' Me: 'That's contrary to CUK policy.' He: 'It's my policy, if you haven't got one you're not coming.' Me: 'Er, hang on a minute, where are you riding from?' He: '' Me: 'Oh I'm not going on that ride.'

Don't nderstand his reasoning but I wasn't about to have a big debate in front of 30 assembled riders.

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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Steady rider » 27 Mar 2019, 4:53pm

Which group?

thelawnet
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby thelawnet » 27 Mar 2019, 5:28pm

Steady rider wrote:Which group?
West Surrey

Steady rider
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Steady rider » 27 Mar 2019, 5:43pm

Perhaps Cycling UK should provide a talk, in Godalming, for West Surrey members about the issue of cycle helmets and explain why choice is the best policy.

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gaz
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby gaz » 27 Mar 2019, 11:17pm

The wording of the current Ride Leaders handbook is open to interpretation as allowing ride leaders to insist upon helmets within the letter of Cycling UK policy.

IMO that would be a deliberate misinterpretation but it's not my opinion that you have to worry about.
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thelawnet
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby thelawnet » 27 Mar 2019, 11:42pm

gaz wrote:The wording of the current Ride Leaders handbook is open to interpretation as allowing ride leaders to insist upon helmets within the letter of Cycling UK policy.

IMO that would be a deliberate misinterpretation but it's not my opinion that you have to worry about.


Well I had a look at the discussion forum for the group, and there were some quite strong words expressed

"Even if you do not value your own life, I would urge you to show consideration to your ride leader who is responsible for all, and your fellow riders who might well be traumatised by witnessing a serious accident involving one of their riding friends. "

"I acknowledge that such respect and consideration is present within the grade 4's, where I am one of the ride leaders, and where it is the expectation of all that fellow riders will wear helmets at all times. "

"I should stress that this is a personal view, albeit from an experienced ride leader, but I know that it is shared by the vast majority of other ride leaders within the group. If you doubt that, please talk to them. "

and a reply from another group leader

"You offer no cogent argument for not protecting yourself by using a helmet; the argument about primary or secondary safety is irrelevant. I see the UK Cycling stance as political rather than safety related. My personal experience has shown the value of a helmet and the experience of others has reinforced that value. Do what you want but don't ride with me."

(btw this discussion was in the context of a helmeted rider suffering a concussion.)

So anyway, I have cancelled my CUK direct debit as I had no idea I was distressing people with my lack-of-a-helmet.

(incidentally nobody (including myself I should add) seems to object to the consumption of alcohol on group rides.)

brynpoeth
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Mar 2019, 6:02am

May I object to consumption of alcohol before cycling?
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gaz
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby gaz » 28 Mar 2019, 8:04am

"... I see the UK Cycling stance as political rather than safety related. My personal experience has shown the value of a helmet and the experience of others has reinforced that value. Do what you want but don't ride with me."

Sadly that's the crux of the misunderstanding shown here. When you Volunteer locally for Cycling UK you are agreeing to abide by its national policies. To my mind that does not involve using the letter of those policies to destroy their spirit.

If you want to insist upon helmets being worn by all riders don't Volunteer to lead rides for Cycling UK.
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horizon
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby horizon » 28 Mar 2019, 11:20am

Is it not another case of herd immunity though? Surely you should wear a helmet, as pointed out above, to protect others' feelings, even if you don't care for your own safety? It is reckoned that you need at least 95% helmet wearing in a group to provide protection for everyone. It is quite selfish for some people not to wear a helmet thereby putting others at risk. And this particularly affects those riders who, for one reason for another, are unable to wear a helmet themselves. I support the view of the Local Group on this: helmet wearing on a CUK ride might not be mandatory but that doesn't mean you don't have a moral responsibility to wear one.
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mjr
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby mjr » 28 Mar 2019, 1:23pm

horizon wrote:Is it not another case of herd immunity though? Surely you should wear a helmet, as pointed out above, to protect others' feelings, even if you don't care for your own safety? It is reckoned that you need at least 95% helmet wearing in a group to provide protection for everyone. It is quite selfish for some people not to wear a helmet thereby putting others at risk. And this particularly affects those riders who, for one reason for another, are unable to wear a helmet themselves. I support the view of the Local Group on this: helmet wearing on a CUK ride might not be mandatory but that doesn't mean you don't have a moral responsibility to wear one.

Protection for the feelings of the foolish magic hat worshippers?
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gaz
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby gaz » 28 Mar 2019, 2:25pm

horizon wrote:Is it not another case of herd immunity though?

Only if somebody can provide evidence rather than anecdote that the herd becomes immune. My understanding is that at best such evidence is in extremely short supply.
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