My Lidl helmet - and fall

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
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Mick F
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Mick F » 28 Mar 2019, 2:39pm

Cunobelin wrote:You have every right to wear a helmet, but the question will always be why just on a bike.
Yes.
Spot on.

Most head injuries by far per mile travelled is from car occupants, yet you wouldn't even consider wearing one driving or being a passenger.

48% for car occupants and 1% for cyclists ........... per mile travelled.
(or that's the stats that I have read)
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby thelawnet » 28 Mar 2019, 4:09pm

Mick F wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:You have every right to wear a helmet, but the question will always be why just on a bike.
Yes.
Spot on.

Most head injuries by far per mile travelled is from car occupants, yet you wouldn't even consider wearing one driving or being a passenger.

48% for car occupants and 1% for cyclists ........... per mile travelled.
(or that's the stats that I have read)


This is simply not true

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2017.pdf

The casualty rate is 5604 per billion passenger miles cycling, and 238 per billion passenger miles in a car.

The death rate is 30.9 per billion passenger miles by cycle, and 1.9 per billion passenger miles in a car.

As noted, cyclists have a similar (only slightly lower) risk of casualty to motorcyclists, but much lower risk of death - slightly lower than a pedestrian. This presumably reflects speeds, etc., and does suggest analogies with motorcyclists are not wise.

In terms of 'serious injury' these are about 1/5 of the total for cyclists, i.e. 1120 per billion miles

To put it another way, if you did 52 * 50 mile weekly rides for 20 years with 12 people, that would be 624,000 passenger miles cumulatively, and you would expect to see a SI in that time.

Or to put in terms of your own personal risk, if you cycled 5000 miles per year you'd expect a serious injury every 180 years or so. And a death every 6660 years.

I think around 40% of SIs are with head injuries? But clearly with a large cycle club with many rides head injuries are statistically inevitable every so often. If you had 200 weekly total riders, then they'd happen every 4 years, and people would make lots of conclusions about helmets based on them.

My view is that injuries DO occur to cyclists, to those with and without helmets, and the current prevalence of helmet wearing means that there is a lot of 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' anecdotes arising as a result - if your friend suffered a horrible injury 10 years ago (and chances are in a cycle club this WILL happen) and he was wearing a helmet, then you may well become an evangelist for helmets.

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Mick F
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Mick F » 28 Mar 2019, 4:25pm

Thank you.
Very interesting.

No mention of helmets though, or what the injuries were, or what the deaths were caused by.
I note that 40odd % of cyclists killed are in London and the SE. Maybe that's where most of them are?
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby thelawnet » 28 Mar 2019, 5:46pm

Mick F wrote:Thank you.
Very interesting.

No mention of helmets though, or what the injuries were, or what the deaths were caused by.
I note that 40odd % of cyclists killed are in London and the SE. Maybe that's where most of them are?


I can't be bothered to check the numbers but there are 18 million people in London/SE, which is about 27%of the total.

It wouldn't take too much extra cycling in the region for the numbers to be in fair proportion to the whole.

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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby mjr » 28 Mar 2019, 5:48pm

Mick F wrote:I note that 40odd % of cyclists killed are in London and the SE. Maybe that's where most of them are?

I've not looked at it again just now but it may be correlated with urban density. Norfolk's cycling casualties are dominated by those within 10km or so of Norwich's boundary - there have been a few rural fatalities in North and West Norfolk at iffy-visibility junctions or involving speeding motorists (80mph in a 50 most recently IIRC) but mercifully few.

But it's not clear if this is because more urban = shorter trips = easier to cycle them = more cycling, or more urban = more junctions and turning vehicles.
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Mick F
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Mick F » 28 Mar 2019, 6:33pm

Mick F wrote:I note that 40odd % of cyclists killed are in London and the SE. Maybe that's where most of them are?

Sort of pointless fact.
There's bound to me more fatalities where there are more people.
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby horizon » 29 Mar 2019, 8:27am

horizon wrote:Is it not another case of herd immunity though? Surely you should wear a helmet, as pointed out above, to protect others' feelings, even if you don't care for your own safety? It is reckoned that you need at least 95% helmet wearing in a group to provide protection for everyone. It is quite selfish for some people not to wear a helmet thereby putting others at risk. And this particularly affects those riders who, for one reason for another, are unable to wear a helmet themselves. I support the view of the Local Group on this: helmet wearing on a CUK ride might not be mandatory but that doesn't mean you don't have a moral responsibility to wear one.


I hope no-one took that seriously but you never know, you never know ....
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby gaz » 29 Mar 2019, 10:26am

We live in hope, which springs eternal.

The forum boards have many readers. On this occasion I felt it best to respond to the devil's advocate rather than to simply let the comment pass with a wry smile to myself.
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Cunobelin » 29 Mar 2019, 7:28pm

It depends on how you look at these things. Distance is a poor measure for comparing cycling and driving

I remember a certain gentleman of the speedophile persuasion who once "proved" that more people were seriously injured by cyclists each year by using miles travelled as the indicator

Of course, cyclists will come out worse by the mile as they travel far less.

An average person drives 7,900 miles in a year, whereas the average cycling distance is 60

It would take the average cyclist 130 years to travel the annual distance of the average driver!

So if you look at the time exposed, the figures become much better for the cyclists.

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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby thelawnet » 30 Mar 2019, 10:39am

Cunobelin wrote:It depends on how you look at these things. Distance is a poor measure for comparing cycling and driving


In general, possibly, but not in the specific. I cycle more miles than I drive. Obviously I have a different risk profile to the average person, who doesn't cycle at all.

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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby bigjim » 30 Mar 2019, 1:03pm

They do a hell of a lot of cycling in Denmark but you rarely see a helmet.
Nothing left to prove.

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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby Mick F » 30 Mar 2019, 7:04pm

.............. and cyclists here who only go on pavements and/or traffic-free routes wear helmets.
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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby pjclinch » 31 Mar 2019, 7:50am

mercalia wrote:my Lidl helmet prevented a bad knock. As I got off my bike I fell backwards against an edge of a path, not very hard but the helmet showed the indent which would have been my head I assume. Thats the sort of accident I would assume a helmet is useful for ?


From "Heads Up" by Brian Walker (who runs a company that tests helmets against standards), originally published in Cycle

WHAT THEY’RE DESIGNED FOR
The earliest cycle helmets standards were principally concerned with protecting from falls from a cycle without any third party involvement,
and generally at lower speeds. The foreword to BSI Standard 6863:1987 read as follows:
‘It (the standard) specifies requirements for helmets intended for use by pedal cyclists on ordinary roads, particularly by young riders in the 5 years to 14 years age group, but which may also be suitable for off the road. It is not intended for high-speed or long distance cycling, or for riders taking part in competitive events. The level of protection offered is less than that given by helmets for motorcycle riders and is intended to give protection in the kind of accident in which the rider falls onto the road without other vehicles being involved.’


So a fair call that the nature of your accident is in line with the above.

But regarding, "the helmet showed the indent which would have been my head I assume", take your helmet (now fit for the bin, by the way, they're one-shot items for events like this) and see if you can dent an undamaged part of the liner at all using just your fingers. Now try the same with your skull. Skulls are a lot harder than polystyrene foam and don't dent nearly so easily (note that I'm not saying it wouldn't have hurt or that wearing the helmet was a negative).
A few years ago, suffering from a bout of lurgy, I passed out in the bathroom and the whack of my head hitting the hard-tiled floor as I fell backwards was enough to have my wife running up the stairs to see what it was. When she saw me lying out cold she wondered if it was an ambulance job, but (lurgy aside) I was fine. Skulls have evolved over a long time to protect their owners from traumatic head injury. They're not perfect, but they are pretty good.

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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby The utility cyclist » 31 Mar 2019, 6:31pm

My 5 year old grandson fell off his bike yesterday not for the first time I might add ( this time trying to do a donut burnout near the supermarket entrance ... okay, trying to turn around uphill too tightly :lol: ) I've no doubt he would have banged his head had he being wearing a helmet, that extra circumference and weight most definitely increases the chances of that, this is exacerbated even further the faster you go or even the taller you are. It shouldn't come as any surprise except to helmet wearers that sticking extra width and weight to your nut will increase chances of hitting said nut and doing more damage than non wearers.

He's a typical 5 year old boy, loves 'racing' me though I continually tell him to slow down, use his brakes, look at what's in front of him etc though he's very polite on the 'pavement' when going past peds, "please can I come past" and always a thank-you afterwards. He's already ridden in the rain of a cold Autumn day, done a few 6-7mile rides, cycles to school every day, and if the schools start getting heavy handed re helmets (they haven't as yet) then I will approach the local authority and sort them out. Even my 10yr old grandson understands how helmets effect the thinking of kids and how they are more likely to be the root cause of a crash.

Still, when you have 1.3million reported head injuries across the UK with approx 160,000 hospital admissions for such, it's amazing how helmet wearers ignore the facts regarding risk :roll:

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Re: My Lidl helmet - and fall

Postby bigjim » 31 Mar 2019, 7:38pm

There is a video doing the rounds somewhere of a little girl trying to master riding a bicycle. It's in somewhere like Sweden. Time and again she falls off that bike. She never hits her head. Always lands on her hands. I am amazed that parents stuff these huge helmets on a toddlers head while they are on a balance bike that leaves them closer to the ground than when they are walking/running. Learning to walk and ride my kids and grandkids have never banged their heads. It's always knees and hands.
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