Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

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cycleruk
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Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby cycleruk » 16 Apr 2019, 8:22pm

I bought a pair of replacement new Centaur ergo's as my old ones started jumping when operated on the button.
I have a Centaur 2008 rear derailleur and 2012 (?) Ultra-shift Centaur shifters. Both 10 speed.
But I can't get a good sweet change on the cassette. I have read on Velotech that it is known issue sometimes but I don't understand why. :?
http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk/camp ... l#comp-mec

Anyone any ideas and is there a cure ?
Possibly need to purchase a different RD but which one. ?
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Mick F
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby Mick F » 16 Apr 2019, 8:39pm

At a guess, your old rear mech will have worn in the top pivot where it bolts onto the rear dropout.
The spindle bolt and hole wear and cause it to be a tiny bit floppy, meaning the changes won't be sweet. The old Ergo was sloppy perhaps too, and now you have a crisp new one, it shows up the worn rear mech.

Just a guess based on my own experience with Mercian.

I had a well-loved Chorus rear mech and when I renewed all the worn bit inside the RH Ergo, the shifts were vague and non-crisp. Reading on here and checking, the top pivot had play side-to-side. I bought a new Comp rear mech, and the fault was cleared in an instant. The old Chorus rear mech is perfect in every way, except the top pivot is worn.

Same thing happened with the Tiagra rear mech on Moulton. Replaced it, and it was fine.
Mick F. Cornwall

Brucey
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby Brucey » 16 Apr 2019, 11:41pm

centaur was 10s ultrashift in 2009 and 2010 only. Before then it was QS and after then it was PS. I made a table (which is really for lever hoods) which tells you this; it is here

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=129110

RDs don't last for ever; probably the one you have is worn in some way or other. I'd certainly try a different RD because it is a simple thing to do and whether you need it now or not it will probably come in handy later on. I thought all campag 11s RDs used the same cable pull as 10s but this may no longer be correct; campag's technical data is as clear as mud on this point.

cheers
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hamster
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby hamster » 17 Apr 2019, 9:01am

If your Ergo is jumping it's usually just a £2 G- spring inside broken. It's reasonably easy to swap it, or Mercian offer a replacement service.

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LinusR
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby LinusR » 17 Apr 2019, 2:28pm

cycleruk wrote:I bought a pair of replacement new Centaur ergo's as my old ones started jumping when operated on the button.
I have a Centaur 2008 rear derailleur and 2012 (?) Ultra-shift Centaur shifters. Both 10 speed.
But I can't get a good sweet change on the cassette. I have read on Velotech that it is known issue sometimes but I don't understand why. :?
http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk/camp ... l#comp-mec

Anyone any ideas and is there a cure ?
Possibly need to purchase a different RD but which one. ?


A Veloce 10 speed rear mech will work if you cannot get a Centaur 10 speed one. I have Centaur 10 speed shifters and use a Veloce 10 speed mech on the rear and a Sram front mech.

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Mick F
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby Mick F » 17 Apr 2019, 3:56pm

Campag 10sp is 10sp.
Mix and match with the rear mechs and RH Ergos.
Mick F. Cornwall

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cycleruk
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby cycleruk » 17 Apr 2019, 10:00pm

Thank's for the replies and inputs guys.

Hampster - as far as I understand my QS shifter is one that spares are not available for and not sure it has a "G" spring . Although a stronger spring may be a cure for it. ? Thanks.

Linus - Veloce seems to be the only practical option now but not happy with the price. Slightly tempted to go Shimano as with all my other bikes. :roll: Thanks.

Brucey - In theory all "new" Campag' have the same pull 1.5 ratio so an 11 speed may be an option excepting, as above, the price. :(

MickF - All 10 speed should be equal but it appears not so. :wink:
The old Centaur RD shifted fine, just the jump in the shifter was the problem.
Even in Velotech's blurb says there could be problems with QS and Ultrashift.
I did though have a look at the pivot and there is a minute amount of play but not enough that I would say it is worn.

Cheers.
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby Mick F » 18 Apr 2019, 8:37am

QS refers to the front mech and front shifting, not the rear.
Can't remember how much play mine had, but as I had a medium cage mech, the play was quite visible at the bottom run. Maybe 5mm in/out. There's a thread on here about my issues with it, but I can't remember any key words to search for.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby LinusR » 18 Apr 2019, 8:59am

cycleruk wrote:Linus - Veloce seems to be the only practical option now but not happy with the price. Slightly tempted to go Shimano as with all my other bikes. :roll: Thanks.


The Veloce front and rear mechs are fine. But the Centaur ergos are much better than the Veloce ones. You can get spare internal for the Centaur ergos for about 60 or 70 quid. I replaced my Veloce ergos with Centaur internals with a slight modification to the hood https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=112357&start=60#p1153729. Parts EC-CE200 and EC-CE201 https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/campagnolo-10-speed-ergo-ultra-shift-shift-shifter-body-centaur-ec-ce200-and-ec-ce201

I have 10 speed Shimano (Tiagra) on my other bike and was tempted to ditch the Campag after the very poor quality of the Veloce ergos. But with the Centaur internals in the Veloce ergos they perform very well. I've now installed the Centaur internal in the left hand Veloce ergo as well.

Shimano Tiagra 10 performs very well and the long (or is it medium) cage rear mech can take cassettes up to 34 teeth (and maybe even 36) which gives me a good low gear on a compact chainset. Whereas with Campag I'm limited to a low of 33 on the front and 29 on the rear (or 30 with a Marchisio cassette).

hamster
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby hamster » 18 Apr 2019, 9:05am

cycleruk wrote:Thank's for the replies and inputs guys.

Hampster - as far as I understand my QS shifter is one that spares are not available for and not sure it has a "G" spring . Although a stronger spring may be a cure for it. ? Thanks.


Ah, I hadn't realised it was a QS-era one, IIRC they have plastic cams and internals. It's worth checking with Mercian if anything can be done, but I think you are right that the parts are not available individually.

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cycleruk
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby cycleruk » 18 Apr 2019, 9:48am

Mick F wrote:QS refers to the front mech and front shifting, not the rear.
Can't remember how much play mine had, but as I had a medium cage mech, the play was quite visible at the bottom run. Maybe 5mm in/out. There's a thread on here about my issues with it, but I can't remember any key words to search for.

Agree that QS is front shifting specific and that the right Ergo is standard. But the internals of that era are plastic and not up to the standard of higher or previous models.
My RD is short cage (50/34 compact chainset) and, after measuring, has about 2mm play at the bottom of the cage.
I changed the top jockey wheel last night as original is quite "wobbly". (technical term :) ) Yes I do know there is some side movement designed in but seemed to me to be too much. We shall see.
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby Brucey » 18 Apr 2019, 10:00am

much of this discussion is rendered considerably less useful by omission of manufacturing years or identities of various parts. Blanket statements about one model being better than another may only be true for some model years not all. For example in some years (eg 2009) Veloce US and Centaur US have different part numbers for the main bracket assembly but contain identical parts internally.

AIUI QS (Quickshift) refers to the front shifting having fewer detents and therefore working more swiftly. However this is merely annoying if you don't have the correct front mech; it doesn't say anything about the true nature of the shifter internals; QS record and chorus ergos only differ from earlier ones in small detail. IMHO real problem with QS era ergo internals is that in the lower groupsets they are also 'Escape' (ES) type. ES ergos were sold in 2007, 2008 model years, as well as 2011-2013 (most 10s). Both ES and Powershift ergos suffer from a similar problem; they use a simplified version of an 'escapement' type mechanism, which will only work if the clearances are maintained to a high (unrealistically high) standard.

FWIW most shimano STIs use an escapement mechanism, but it is prevented from slipping on downshifts by virtue of there being an extra pawl which is pre-engaged with the ratchet ring. The downside of this is that it is complicated, but it does mean that the mechanism is pretty much slip-proof on downshifts. The Campag ES and PS mechanisms are much simpler and don't have this additional pawl; when they wear (which they will do, they don't seem to be made of sufficiently wear-resistant materials) they soon start to slip and once this begins the whole thing is pretty much self-knackering.

For many years (all models up to 2006 and in higher groups long after) campag ergos used a G spring type detent mechanism. The downside of this is that over time, the parts will definitely wear and the shifter will stop working properly; this is fairly unavoidable. On the plus side the shifters normally have a long life before they fail, the most common wear parts are not that expensive or difficult to fit, and the failure mode is usually 'graceful' (a gradual deterioration) rather than catastrophic. I certainly prefer the G spring type internals over PS or ES type, however campag are busy discontinuing spare parts for these now..... :roll:

cheers
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cycleruk
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby cycleruk » 18 Apr 2019, 5:28pm

As mentioned up thread I changed the top jockey wheel and there is definitely some improvement but not enough to be happy with. So will ponder on what to do next.
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Re: Old Centaur 'V' newer Centaur ?

Postby Mick F » 18 Apr 2019, 6:23pm

If I get chance tomorrow, I'll check out my 10sp Chorus rear mech and assess the play.

I still have it, and can't part with it even if it won't index reliably. My RH Chorus Ergo is on its last legs as the worn parts are no longer available, so in the near(?) future I will revert to friction DT shifters and not worry about the play in the top pivot.
Mick F. Cornwall