does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
PH
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby PH » 17 Apr 2019, 2:13pm

Des49 wrote:Don't worry too much Ivor, these hubs have proved to be very reliable. There have been cases of flange failure, but must be pretty uncommon.

I have two Rohloff hubs, the first since 2003 has had two replacement shells, the first after 7 years the second 5 years later and Rohloff attributed that crack to be a result of changing wheel size.
Neither of my hubs have the support rings, on one it'd be impossible to fit without changing the spoke pattern and on the other the advice from SJS was that it'd be better to wait till it next needed a wheel build.
As for Thorn - The very much have their own way of doing things! They don't always follow Rohloff's advise, you can agree or disagree with them but my experience is they stand by what they do, my two broken flanges were replaced without fuss by them despite Rohloff disowning the second.

PH
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby PH » 17 Apr 2019, 2:19pm

Ivor Tingting wrote:SJS sent mine by Parcel Force 24.

Who they have an account with, they don't pay what you or I would. When I was an account holder, sending 100's of parcels a week, the cost was around 40% and block insurance was covered by a third party.
No need to argue about it, look see for yourself, go to Parcel to Go or any of the brokers and see what price you can get to send a 2kg parcel with £1,000 insurance.
Last edited by PH on 17 Apr 2019, 2:24pm, edited 1 time in total.

PH
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby PH » 17 Apr 2019, 2:24pm

Brucey wrote:The 8524 kit comprises one large and one small support rings and fits later hubs (with the underlined hubshell marking). The 8523 kit has two of the smaller rings and fits older hubs. Changeover serial numbers are:

According to SJS, there's also rings only available to service centres that are applied heated to shrink fit on cooling, these are also available in colours other than black.

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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby PH » 17 Apr 2019, 3:18pm

Ivor Tingting wrote: Surely they should just make the flange taller so as not to need these rings or would this not address any weaknesses in the flange such as cracks?

They tried making the flange on the drive side taller, it made no difference so returned to them being the same size. Although the Rohloff Speedhub looks like it hasn't changed in decades, the different rings for different years shows how it's frequently revised.

Brucey
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Brucey » 17 Apr 2019, 4:14pm

Des49 wrote:….. as far as I know the hub shells are machined and so not as strong potentially as a forged hub.


that is my understanding too. If you look at the specs for large diameter bar stock (which is what I think they make their hubshells out of) it is usually quite a bit less ductile than smaller diameter stuff; when they make the smaller diameter stuff the inclusions etc end up being made smaller too. The net effect of all this is that smaller diameter bar stock in the same material is better than the large stuff.


PH wrote:
Brucey wrote:The 8524 kit comprises one large and one small support rings and fits later hubs (with the underlined hubshell marking). The 8523 kit has two of the smaller rings and fits older hubs. Changeover serial numbers are:

According to SJS, there's also rings only available to service centres that are applied heated to shrink fit on cooling, these are also available in colours other than black.


I've not seen those; are they otherwise made similarly?

FWIW I don't think Rohloff hubshells are especially prone to breaking; it is more that the hubs are often used in high load situations, otherwise last a long time and folk (quite rightly) have high expectations of a hub that has that kind of price tag.

What I'm slightly fuzzy on is whether corrosion has played a significant role in instances of cracking; all things being equal I'd expect it to have, but I've not had the chance to examine cracked hubs to see for myself.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

pga
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby pga » 17 Apr 2019, 6:09pm

Try John Poyzer at Stripes in Woburn Sands, near Milton Keynes. Highly recommended locally.

Ivor Tingting
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Ivor Tingting » 17 Apr 2019, 7:15pm

Brucey wrote:
Des49 wrote:….. as far as I know the hub shells are machined and so not as strong potentially as a forged hub.


that is my understanding too. If you look at the specs for large diameter bar stock (which is what I think they make their hubshells out of) it is usually quite a bit less ductile than smaller diameter stuff; when they make the smaller diameter stuff the inclusions etc end up being made smaller too. The net effect of all this is that smaller diameter bar stock in the same material is better than the large stuff.


PH wrote:
Brucey wrote:The 8524 kit comprises one large and one small support rings and fits later hubs (with the underlined hubshell marking). The 8523 kit has two of the smaller rings and fits older hubs. Changeover serial numbers are:

According to SJS, there's also rings only available to service centres that are applied heated to shrink fit on cooling, these are also available in colours other than black.


I've not seen those; are they otherwise made similarly?

FWIW I don't think Rohloff hubshells are especially prone to breaking; it is more that the hubs are often used in high load situations, otherwise last a long time and folk (quite rightly) have high expectations of a hub that has that kind of price tag.

What I'm slightly fuzzy on is whether corrosion has played a significant role in instances of cracking; all things being equal I'd expect it to have, but I've not had the chance to examine cracked hubs to see for myself.

cheers


Or possibly use of unsuitable spokes, incorrect lacing pattern or spoke tension as well?
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

Ivor Tingting
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Ivor Tingting » 17 Apr 2019, 7:23pm

I checked my hubs and the recent one built by SJS has the rings on. Didn't even notice but then again I wasn't looking for them but still should have realised. The older hub was bought back in Dec 2016 but this doesn't have the rings on. There were no rings with the hub in the box when it was bought and built up into a wheel. It looks fine though, no cracks on anything as far as I can see which isn't saying much given I didn't notice the other hub had the rings on. I still think Rohloff should supply these rings free of charge to the original owners who still have their hubs as clearly Rohloff must think there is a risk of cracking of the flange otherwise why provide them? It's a bit rich charging for them. You still have to pay £45-50 to get the wheel rebuilt anyway or do it yourself if you have the knowledge and skill which I don't.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

Ivor Tingting
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Ivor Tingting » 17 Apr 2019, 7:45pm

Des49 wrote:Don't worry too much Ivor, these hubs have proved to be very reliable. There have been cases of flange failure, but must be pretty uncommon.

My hub was brought 2nd hand in about 2001 and was manufactured either that year or the year before. When I replaced the rim about 3 years ago I fitted the flange support rings, no reason not to and may prove to be useful one day.

I wonder if the rings are forged, this would make them much stronger for the purpose, as far as I know the hub shells are machined and so not as strong potentially as a forged hub.


Makes sense. I must admit I have only heard of a couple of flange failures but don't know if these were attributable to an inherent fault in the flanges of those hubs or due to use of unsuitable spokes, incorrect lacing pattern, incorrect spoke tensions of the wheel build or as some one else had suggested corrosion. Flange failures seem pretty rare but Rohloff must think that even a small number of failures warrants producing these support rings. It would be interesting if there was a flange failure on an older hub predating autumn 2017 when these were supplied in all Speedhub kits by Rohloff, which resulted in injury to a rider. I think they would possibly be in quite a difficult position as well as an injured owner or worse. Could hub flange failure be that catastrophic that it caused an accident? I don't know.

Would it not be possible for Rohloff to make a forged hub or would that not be possible or in doing so simply make the cost of the hub even greater than it already is? I emailed Rohloff shortly after I bought my first one enquiring about the possibility of a closer ratio hub but their response was not encouraging. Basically they didn't want to know. Anyway I hope I don't have problems with mine. The rest of it is fine, still very easy and enjoyable to ride and low maintenance.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

Ivor Tingting
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Ivor Tingting » 17 Apr 2019, 7:47pm

PH wrote:
Ivor Tingting wrote:It might be better to actually read what you are copying and pasting. The advice appears to apply to OLDER Speedhubs. Neither of my 2 Rohloff Speedhubs have been supplied with these rings and none have been fitted when the wheels have been built and the hubs are just fine. Do you actually own a Rohloff hub or are you just scaremongering?

Would you please check the facts and edit this rudeness.


Have done as you ask and I will if you will.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

Des49
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Des49 » 17 Apr 2019, 10:43pm

PH wrote:
Des49 wrote:Don't worry too much Ivor, these hubs have proved to be very reliable. There have been cases of flange failure, but must be pretty uncommon.

I have two Rohloff hubs, the first since 2003 has had two replacement shells, the first after 7 years the second 5 years later and Rohloff attributed that crack to be a result of changing wheel size.
Neither of my hubs have the support rings, on one it'd be impossible to fit without changing the spoke pattern and on the other the advice from SJS was that it'd be better to wait till it next needed a wheel build.
As for Thorn - The very much have their own way of doing things! They don't always follow Rohloff's advise, you can agree or disagree with them but my experience is they stand by what they do, my two broken flanges were replaced without fuss by them despite Rohloff disowning the second.


The failures may be relatively uncommon (and we do not have the data to know much), but I see your point, your own experience is not the best.

Des49
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Des49 » 17 Apr 2019, 10:53pm

Ivor Tingting wrote:Would it not be possible for Rohloff to make a forged hub or would that not be possible or in doing so simply make the cost of the hub even greater than it already is?

Setting up to make a forged component is extremely expensive, but maybe if Rohloff had known that the hub would be so successful and sales would be hundreds of thousands as they are now rather than a few tens of thousands they may have done it. Probably a bit late now to expect them to make such changes when what they have works well. Doesn't stop them tweaking things like the flange rings and also the new splined sprocket holder seems a worthwhile improvement from the original hard to remove screw on sprocket. I have a new splined holder and sprocket waiting for when I wear out my next sprocket, may take a while though.

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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby PH » 18 Apr 2019, 12:44am

Brucey wrote:
PH wrote:According to SJS, there's also rings only available to service centres that are applied heated to shrink fit on cooling, these are also available in colours other than black.


I've not seen those; are they otherwise made similarly?
cheers

I know nothing about them other than this from the Thorn workshop via their forum
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php ... 3#msg99843

What I'm slightly fuzzy on is whether corrosion has played a significant role in instances of cracking; all things being equal I'd expect it to have, but I've not had the chance to examine cracked hubs to see for myself.

I wonder the same, also whether that played a part in the decision to anodise the previously polished silver hubs. Most of the small sample of broken Rohloff flanges I've seen have been silver, though it might just be that that's because must hubs are.

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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Brucey » 18 Apr 2019, 9:00am

corrosion seems to be implicated in very many (most IME) other aluminium hubshell failures; lets put it this way, I have yet to see a flange crack in a hub that has always been covered in a sticky layer of oil/grease. By contrast adding electrolyte to an intimately fitted stainless steel/aluminium assembly is liable to create the perfect conditions for corrosion to occur, and there is no doubt that this can help to initiate cracks.

I am not at all sure that anodising is a step forwards here; there is evidence to suggest that anodising lowers the fatigue strength of aluminium alloy parts. In addition the anodised layer will definitely be damaged where the spoke fits, so cannot possibly be of any use where it is arguably needed the most. In anodised parts, a breach in the anodising merely serves to intensify localised corrosive attack; again this is likely to be a negative effect.

In any hub which I expect to stay oil-free externally, yet see weather, I usually corrosion -proof the spoke holes using waxoyl (which is run in whilst hot so it penetrates fully). This treatment usually lasts at least a year, unless the hubshell is cleaned using very hot water, which tends to melt the wax and wash it away. Without this treatment hubshells that see the weather tend to go white and furry around the spoke holes through corrosion, and cannot possibly have such good fatigue strength any more. I don't see why the same oughtn't apply to a Rohloff hub.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ivor Tingting
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Re: does anyone know of a good wheel builder south midlands area?

Postby Ivor Tingting » 18 Apr 2019, 1:23pm

Both my hubs are black and kept very clean. I keep my bikes indoors so not bone chillingly cold either.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.