Lightweight headset spanners

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nsew
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby nsew » 4 May 2019, 1:09pm

slowster wrote:
nsew wrote:
Sweep wrote:Sorry - being really thick I suspect but slots into what?

Into the hooked part on the CT 32mm head. That’s all the full CT did anyway.

That still doesn't make any sense to me. You can certainly use the Headset Adapter without the Cool Tool itself, but you would need something to take the place of the Cool Tool's adjustable spanner, the jaws of which grip the Adapter by a short piece of metal with a 90 degree bend in it to stop the jaws sliding off (which I presume is the 'hooked part' to which you refer, but it would not accept an allen key as a substitute for the adjustable spanner).


An Allen key either 5mm or 8mm (can’t recall) secures nicely in there. The turn is one directional due to the open side so flip the CT over to loosen the nut. If you have the CT 32mm spanner try it. If you carry a Leatherman then you have the pliers required.

nsew
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby nsew » 4 May 2019, 1:33pm

Also, the Cool Tool had different manufacturers. The original followed by Gerber and possibly one other b4 being discontinued. There may be variances in the design. Mine worked with an Allen Key as well as obviously pliers.

slowster
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby slowster » 4 May 2019, 2:59pm

nsew wrote:An Allen key either 5mm or 8mm (can’t recall) secures nicely in there. The turn is one directional due to the open side so flip the CT over to loosen the nut. If you have the CT 32mm spanner try it.

I had already tried it before I posted. The piece of metal which the Cool Tool's spanner's jaws grip is bent over at roughly 90 degrees to prevent the jaws slipping off. I guess it's possible that variations in manufacturing tolerances might result in the metal being bent over at more than 90 degrees and such that an allen key of a particular size might be a reasonably snug fit in the gap (although that would not necessarily mean it could then take the torque of using the tool on a headset). The Adaptor tools certainly weren't designed to be used like that, because to have bent over the metal so much that it would fully surround an allen key would have prevented the spanner from being used with it.

nsew wrote:Also, the Cool Tool had different manufacturers. The original followed by Gerber and possibly one other b4 being discontinued. There may be variances in the design. Mine worked with an Allen Key as well as obviously pliers.

Mine came in Fiskars branded packaging (Fiskars is Gerber's parent company).

drossall
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby drossall » 4 May 2019, 4:54pm

Just done a very quick google.

Found these:

https://www.evanscycles.com/m-part-spli ... 3-EV173707[/quote]
That's what I meant. Those are the modern kind. Traditional ones were metal, and 1mm was a pretty thick one. None were anything like that size, because they existed to fill any spare thread, not to adjust bar height.

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Gattonero
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Gattonero » 5 May 2019, 11:03am

One of the reasons why threadless headsets became de-facto in the Mtb world was to avoid it going loose.
BITD some manufacturers (I recall Trek, and possibly Rocky Mountain plus others) started to fit a locknut with a grub screw, to reduce the problem.

As always, the best adjustment is done in two steps, rather than tightening a lot on the locknut is the top cup that has to be unscrewed against it, then both screwed back in to give the final adjustment. By doing so, is less likely the need for constant re-adjusting.

If the problem persists on a frequent basis, I'd check for correct installation and facing the headtube & fork's crown.
If in real need, small headset spanners that would fit in the saddle bag are still available, IIRC seen something on Amazon and local shops?
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Sweep
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Sweep » 5 May 2019, 1:23pm

Sorry gatto, don't quite understand your second para. Possible to rephrase?

If you have any links relating to final para would be grateful - though the cooltool araptor is already on its way.
Sweep

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Gattonero
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Gattonero » 5 May 2019, 2:16pm

Sweep wrote:Sorry gatto, don't quite understand your second para. Possible to rephrase?

If you have any links relating to final para would be grateful - though the cooltool araptor is already on its way.


(provided the headset is correctly installed on a frame that is decently prepared)
-screw in the top cup until no play can be felt
-fit the washer(s) toothed/keyed/plain
-fit the cantilever hanger if present, but don't feed the brake wire yet
-fit the locknut and tighten it against the washers & top cup
-unscrew the top cup so that it goes a bit firm against the washers & locknut, sometimes this allows to unscrew the top cup to 1/2 turn!
-with two headset spanners now tighten both locknut & top cup simultaneously, until there is no play

A simple way to check for play of the headset only, is to keep the bike vertical, so that it is leaning by the front wheel and the handlebars: hold the stem firmly with one hand and the frame (i.e. the seat tube) with the other and try to move the frame fore/aft. Because of the high leverage given by the whole bike, you will notice right away if the headset (and this only) has play.
Alternatively, use a workstand and firmly clamp the frame by the seatpost (or seat tube at its bottom) without the front wheel: grab the downtube with one had and the forks with the other, try to move fore/aft. Any play of the headset is quickly spotted.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Sweep
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Sweep » 5 May 2019, 4:55pm

I realise you are a Pro gatto and am sure you have a good feel for these things but I fear that if ham fisted me used your system of adjustment I would destroy the bevarings.

For a final check on headsets (after the rocking test) I tend to turn the bike over (flat bars with gar ends which maybe helps) and pull back and forth on the forks. This I assume means that brake flex or whetever is taken out of the equation. If there is any fault in my method folk please feel free to shoot me down/advise.
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Gattonero
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Gattonero » 6 May 2019, 8:32am

You can only damage the bearings by overtightening, which you're not going to do since you are moving the top cup to make contact then unscrewing it. At that point the headset will have a bit of play that you will finely adjust by screwing both top cup and locknut simultaneously: this is far easier and accurate than having to use brute force on the locknut alone trying to reduce the play.

The method of turning the front wheel at 90º does include the flex of the wheel and the possible play of the hub...
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

Brucey
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Brucey » 6 May 2019, 12:27pm

if the threads on the steerer are worn at either the locknut or adjusting race location, it is best if you can hold that part static as the other is tightened against it. If the two are already locked against one another, it is a very bad idea to turn them both together; this can mangle the threads and it (of course) is guaranteed to knacker things if there is a tabbed washer between the two.

One mechanic I know adjusts headsets by screwing the adjusting race down finger tight, then screwing the locknut down finger tight. Next he holds the locknut with one spanner and backs the adjusting race upwards into it using a second. If this is done correctly this gives an initial setting that is quite close to the final setting, because of the way the parts bear against the thread flanks.

FWIW there is a big difference between the adjustment required on (say) a small road bike with skinny tyres and a very short head tube vs a larger framed touring bike with a longer steerer. The former needs the locknut to be pretty tight else it will shake loose. The latter sees much lower loads and doesn't need to be as tight. Also a long steerer may flex in normal use enough to affect the adjustment; for the headset not to rattle in normal service, you can run an adjustment that seems as if there is a little free play when tested in the normal way. This free play disappears as soon as you get on the bike and flex the steerer slightly, only reappearing under heavy braking. If you take all the free play out of the headset, it may see abnormally high loads in service (once the steerer flexes) and may wear/brinell more quickly.

cheers
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Gattonero
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Gattonero » 7 May 2019, 9:22am

Brucey wrote:if the threads on the steerer are worn at either the locknut or adjusting race location, it is best if you can hold that part static as the other is tightened against it. If the two are already locked against one another, it is a very bad idea to turn them both together; this can mangle the threads and it (of course) is guaranteed to knacker things if there is a tabbed washer between the two.


Nope, the only guarantee to make damage is by using brute force.
If you read what I've said above, is exactly what I don't advise to do. In fact, I've said to tighten the locknut not to lock it against the top cup.

One thing that has to be checked beforehand, is the health of the threads in both the steerer and the top cup&locknut. The former, is often chased by the manufacturer or in a shop, the latter option can give an incredible amount of variation in the thread itself: from a die that's not been cleaned and picks up swarf and damages the thread, to an incorrect die; all this can turn the original threads to a very low value of engagement.
Bear in mind that most of the bicycle parts are made to fit easy, so they are made with a relatively low percentage of thread engagement for ease of fit to the operator. If you reduce this value by chasing over and over the threads, or by chasing them wrong, then it's easy to damage the locknut or top cup.
The fork's steerer, being the male thread, will be the last to be damaged especially when the headset locknut and top cup are made out of alluminium.

The same applies for the tabbed washer: a sloppy fit can start to rotate altogether with the headset no matter what technique you are using. Best to file down the tab and use it as plain washer than use it as a thread-wrecker.

A threaded headset that constantly keeps working itself loose, needs particular attention in the state of its threads: it's not easy to judge the percentage of engagement of the threads, but certainly you don't want to see the top cup or locknut been able to rock up&down the thread when you're freely screwing them on the forks.

Brucey wrote:One mechanic I know adjusts headsets by screwing the adjusting race down finger tight, then screwing the locknut down finger tight. Next he holds the locknut with one spanner and backs the adjusting race upwards into it using a second. If this is done correctly this gives an initial setting that is quite close to the final setting, because of the way the parts bear against the thread flanks.

If you see the above, this is no silver bullet.
A thread that is not decently snug, will have a noticeable variation in the preload once you are to tighten the two preloading parts. Sometimes you can unscrew the top cup (with the locknut tight) up to 1/2 turn which is guarantee of a loose headset right away or pretty soon.

That ought to be the reason why Mtbs gave up with threaded headsets and never looked back :wink:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Sweep
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Sweep » 10 May 2019, 5:41pm

Update on 32mm cool tool adaptor.

It arrived and it's fine - successfully used.

Small point - for some reason I don't entirely understand its jaws don't fit the cup or locknut on all sides like my Xtools and Park headset tools but just grip the nut on two sides.

Still it will do.

On tour I will take the cooltool, adaptor, plus - putting up with the weight - my Xtools spanner - I like to be prepared.




Thanks again for the link upthread.
Sweep

Brucey
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Brucey » 10 May 2019, 5:46pm

locknuts can be either hexagonal or octagonal; the spanner will be made to fit one or the other type

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Sweep
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Sweep » 10 May 2019, 5:48pm

Another update.

Some of these, 5mm, arrived.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-INCH-ALLOY ... VeECrzoVDg

On one of my bikes I have now replaced the combined spacer/canti brake hanger (now not needed as bikes changed to V brakes) with one of these.

Wahay - adjusting the headset now way way easier now that I have free access to the nut on the bearing cup.

Can even use the X tools headset spanner as it no longer gets itself trapped.

Two other bikes will have them fitted as well.
Sweep

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Sweep
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Re: Lightweight headset spanners

Postby Sweep » 10 May 2019, 5:50pm

Brucey wrote:locknuts can be either hexagonal or octagonal; the spanner will be made to fit one or the other type

cheers


Thanks brucey - something more I've learned.

I assume the cool tool adaptor is only available in the form of the one I ended up with.

As long as I am gripping two faces and am careful I assume all will be well - will use another spanner for the locknut.
Sweep