** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Psamathe]

Morning all, I do agree that insults are too common in this thread, but sadly I believe it will not stop!......

You were going to give us some examples and evidence about our Civil Service "gumming up the works". You threw the accusation out there and when asked for examples and evidence ... it seems to have slipped you mind. Without examples with evidence your accusation becomes just another example like the BBC link about Romanians and child abduction, etc. fake news - sling some dirt and hope some sticks.

You did accuse the Civil Service of choosing a far too nebulous question (until pointed out that Parliament actually chose the question), so some examples with evidence would make your accusations something we can consider rather than falling into the "fake news" bucket.

Ian

[Bonefishblues]

My impression is that the civil service has made the best out of an absolutely terrible job presented to them by politicians.

[Psamathe]

Morning all, I do agree that insults are too common in this thread, but sadly I believe it will not stop!....

Where are all these insults you keep accusing others of making. It's a generally pretty polite thread given how emotive the subject is but you seem to keep accusing "people" of continually posting insults (I'd put a shoulder shrug emojoi here if I knew how).

There was one personal insult (from a Brexit supporting contributor) but it was quickly removed and not directed at you anyway. What are you hoping to achieve with the continual "insults are too common in this thread"?

Ian

[horizon]

If I was involved we would be out by now

Al

But you aren't. And that's the problem for Brexit. There are lots of people, including the Civil Service, who don't support Brexit and are going to drag their feet on it. Most Brexit supporters are over a certain age - it's an idea which is generationally on the way out. A change as big as Brexit requires a tidal wave of support to carry it through and it doesn't have it. It is interesting comparing it to fracking: why hasn't the tremor limit been increased? Because Tory MPs don't like fracking; the companies on their own cannot achieve it, even with government support. The Brexit party will obviously do well on May 23rd. But the high tide of Brexit was June 2016: it just got over the line (a kind of exceptional spring tide with storm winds) but it's been receding ever since. And so, like many people, Al, you are not involved and so you are right - we are not out by now.

[PDQ Mobile]

Al.
Perception is a strange thing.
Clearly emotions run high on here, and we all have our firm opinions.
I have myself, more than once experienced a sense of injustice from some things that have been said. And that leads to writing something in haste less than well considered!
But it comes from the heart.

Now you too are guilty of this.
It is my perception that you have been one of the more culpable of the "Leavers" in this regard.
And it is my personal perception that the "leave" side have resorted more to such frustration than the "remain". Beware of the mocking emoj!

A frustration perhaps borne out of the fact that Brexit has increasingly been shown to be a con and a forthcoming disaster. A propaganda vehicle for a less than desirable section of both some politicians and some of the public.

[bovlomov]

There are lots of people, including the Civil Service, who don't support Brexit and are going to drag their feet on it.

Like I said before, I suspected that would happen. I have seen no evidence, however, that the failure of Brexit has anything to do with civil service resistance.

Brexit (at least as advertised) can never work. Reality is the obstacle. Civil servants are just the latest scapegoat, behind 'the liberal elite', judges, Remainer MPs, rootless cosmopolitans, academics, journalists, young people, the Irish and assorted foreigners. Indeed, they'll blame anyone rather than blame themselves.

[Oldjohnw]

There are lots of people, including the Civil Service, who don't support Brexit and are going to drag their feet on it.

Like I said before, I suspected that would happen. I have seen no evidence, however, that the failure of Brexit has anything to do with civil service resistance.

Brexit (at least as advertised) can never work. Reality is the obstacle. Civil servants are just the latest scapegoat, behind 'the liberal elite', judges, Remainer MPs, rootless cosmopolitans, academics, journalists, young people, the Irish and assorted foreigners. Indeed, they'll blame anyone rather than blame themselves.

The CS isn't a "people" with a collective mind. It consists of 300,000+ individuals each of whom have a view and a vote. Whether they like it or not they have had to get in with executing government policies. They always have: that is their job. Sometimed they can see folly and are entitled to point it out. That also is their job. There are provisions available for when they see something so foolish as to be disastrous and they can register this so that they will not get the blame for ministerial folly. I am not aware of any evidence that they have dragged their feet over Brexit.

[roubaixtuesday]

Brexit (at least as advertised) can never work. Reality is the obstacle.

Precisely.

The question has always been about how and when the collision with reality happens, not if. So far, it's been gruesome and slow. Kind of a root canal Brexit.

[thirdcrank]

If there's anything really wrong with senior appointed officials in this country, it's what's become known in Private Eye as the revolving door ie people getting well-paid sinecures in private companies which operate in their former field. Little different, in fact, from elected representatives who are on the same track. It seems to me that Brexit cuts right across this.

[reohn2]

......The question has always been about how and when the collision with reality happens, not if. So far, it's been gruesome and slow. Kind of a root canal Brexit.

And remains to be seen if the tooth can be saved(remain) or if the tooth will be extracted(leave).
IMO it's looking more like a very painful filling will need to be endured for the good of the patient's dental health,given that extraction will leave a large gap in a smile the whole world will laugh at.

I'm still waiting for anyone to give sound reason for 'extraction',so far non has been forthcoming,and reasons becoming more bizarre with each post from 'extraction' supporters

[Vorpal]

No it isnt. If you move to another country thats where you make your life. Become a citizen, learn the language, become a part of your local community and contribute to it. All too often Brits go to France for dirt cheap housing, dirt cheap booze, dont learn the language or become part of the community, sit watching UK Sky or Freesat and socialising only with other Brits. I have met plenty of examples, they rush back to the UK when they run out of money or become ill. They have a choice and presently their views or votes dont count. I believe that if they want the protection of the British passport and the use of our Health Service they should continue paying some appropriate UK taxes. Why should they leech off UK taxpayers?

Al

The vast majority of ex-pats are not leeching off UK taxpayers, but paying tax in their country of residence. They are working age And many of them intend to return, which is why they wish to have a say in Brexit. Furthermore, they do not use the NHS, but use local health services, or those paid for by the companies for which they work.

It is estimated that of the 1.2m British expats living within the EU, around 800,000 are workers or those dependent on workers in the family. https://www.expatriates.co.uk/

There are over 13000 British living in Norway, and while I don't have detailed demographics, I know that most of them work here; many in the oil & gas industry. All of the many British I have met here are either working age, or the children of a British person who works here. None are retired. None are milking any systems or leeching off taxpayers. Most are paying more taxes than they would in the UK. The exceptions among those that I know are on generous expat contracts, and still pay taxes in the UK, because they are still on UK salaries.

What you suggest in your post is that BP employees working in Norway should become Norwegian citizens, although I don't think that is what you intended.

[bovlomov]

The vast majority of ex-pats are not leeching off UK taxpayers, but paying tax in their country of residence.

I think Al's is a rather outdated picture of British emigrants: lounging about in packs, never learning the local language, coming back to the UK for medical treatment because they don't trust the local provision. That may have been how things used to be, to some degree, but it doesn't describe anyone I know.

[al_yrpal]

My mole was a very Senior CS in the Treasury. He followed the same Engineering career path as me but wanted to get into a Whitehall job as an Assistant Principal. At the time the old boy network and public school Oxford/ Cambridge ethos was in full chat. Eventually after a lot of opposition he broke through eventually rising to the top echelons. He has many contacts throughout Whitehall. I believe what he says because its all been backed up by the many serial leaks reported in the press. You can follow Ministerial directives without enthusiasm and back burner ideas and processes at your disposal unknown to politicians to attain fast track results. Just one aspect of the Establishments widespread campaign to destroy Brexit and frustrate the peoples vote.

I note the serial profering of the idea that voting intention changes with age only at the start and end. It doesnt it changes gradually as people age so many switch to Brexit in middle age. My neighbour used to be the Chairman of the local Labour Party, he is now to be seen delivering Brexit Party leaflets and is the epitome of a racist Tory. ALL people change as they age.

Al

[broadway]

If I was involved we would be out by now and concentrating on how to distribute the savings, Its clearly someones fault but definately not mine. Elites mess with Nation's progress, just like in VZ it all ends in chaos. < SNIP - removed : Graham >

Al

Savings, this assumes that we could provided all the EU services that we rely on at less than the shared cost within the EU. Have you got the figures so we can verify your claim?

[661-Pete]

......The question has always been about how and when the collision with reality happens, not if. So far, it's been gruesome and slow. Kind of a root canal Brexit.

And remains to be seen if the tooth can be saved(remain) or if the tooth will be extracted(leave).
IMO it's looking more like a very painful filling will need to be endured for the good of the patient's dental health,given that extraction will leave a large gap in a smile the whole world will laugh at.

I'm still waiting for anyone to give sound reason for 'extraction',so far non has been forthcoming,and reasons becoming more bizarre with each post from 'extraction' supporters

And what's even more bizarre, it was claimed (according to a certain bus) that this 'extraction' would actually save us money.

Judging by my own experiences with dentists, this has never proved to be the case...