Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

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Samuel D
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Samuel D » 12 May 2019, 9:03am

Brucey wrote:One downside to the facom ratchet design is that it isn't compatible with a pushbutton socket release.

True. A problem with oily hands.

Brucey wrote:One of the oddball Facom tools I own is a 245.J2A wad punch set.

How do you store tools like these (and socket sets and much else) without having them rust? Liberal use of WD-40? This has been on my mind since my Cyclus crown race fitting tool rusted unbelievably in just six months in a cool cupboard. As I acquire more tools I need to consider how to store them for the long term.

Brucey
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Brucey » 12 May 2019, 9:25am

sweat/fingerprints are corrosive, so are fumes from boilers etc, lots of other chemicals (*), and any condensation will promote corrosion too. If tools are kept oily they don't corrode so quickly, so you can wipe them with an oily rag, or spray them with WD40 for short term storage or something like Duck oil for the longer term. Even furniture polish is better than nothing.

You can also get chemically impregnated paper specifically meant for corrosion inhibition; it contains a vapour phase corrosion inhibitor which means that you just need to have some of it in the same box as the tools and you will prevent most corrosion. [ BTW I have no idea where to buy this stuff, but it used to come wrapped around lots of things which were well packed.]

(*) this category includes some cutting lubricants; a cheap way of getting EP properties is to use certain halogenated compounds, which if not cleaned off cutting tools after use, tends to cause corrosion in storage.

cheers
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robc02
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby robc02 » 13 May 2019, 10:36am

Samuel D wrote:How do you store tools like these (and socket sets and much else) without having them rust? Liberal use of WD-40? This has been on my mind since my Cyclus crown race fitting tool rusted unbelievably in just six months in a cool cupboard. As I acquire more tools I need to consider how to store them for the long term.

As well as oiling them as per Brucey's recommendation, storing them in a small space such as a shallow drawer or closed box is generally helpful.

I was taught to store sharp edged woodworking tools like this, rather than hanging them on a wall rack, and it has always been successful for me. The principle, of course, is to prevent the circulation of fresh damp air, but seems to work fairly well for me even when I put tools away in the middle of a cold damp winter! If you are really well organised you could oil them and then put them in a small closed box with a dessicant pack enclosed.

Samuel D
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Samuel D » 13 May 2019, 6:30pm

Not sure if you’ll still see this ad with its minging photos and dire description (“Facom” not mentioned, “cliquet” (ratchet) not mentioned, drive size not mentioned, no model numbers, not even a description of the contents beyond “douilles” (sockets)).

I managed to decipher what I was looking at: a Facom J.151A 3/8" drive ratchet and accessories with OGV (flank drive) sockets, all made in France in the good old days and packed in a lovely metal case. The asking price was 60 euros and I talked him down to 45 euros cash. I felt like a thief. Roughly equivalent to this at over £150.

What looked like rust in the ad turned out to be heavy engine oil. It was plastered everywhere because, you guessed it, the cowboy had oiled the ratchet with it. It barely clicked at all. No tooth wear inside, though. The set has seen very little use (for many sockets, none at all). I have a feeling he oiled it for the sale.

Here it is all cleaned up inside and out with my new knowledge of how to look after ratchets:

Image



Image



Image

Those 12-point sockets will keep open my options for building aeroplanes and race cars in the future.

Brucey
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Brucey » 13 May 2019, 8:37pm

tres bon!

FWIW I think the Facom 3/8" drive 15mm socket may be thin-walled enough to enter an old stronglight, TA, or campag crank and release/tighten the crank bolts; 15mm headed bolts were used for many years in these cranks. No 20mm socket in your kit I see; not a common size but sod's law being what it is....

A few sheets of anti-corrosion paper (also known as VCI paper) in the bottom of the kit may prevent corrosion for quite a long time.

If you want to go the final mile with tools you always can do; at one point I had a 'workshop' box that contained whit/BSF, AF, mm, and BA size sockets all milling about and whilst my eyeballs are quite well calibrated it got rather tedious picking up the wrong size socket several times before I found the correct one; often they got mixed up and you couldn't tell at a glance that (say) a metric slot contained something else. Also the inside of some of the sockets was beginning to corrode. I decided to kill two birds with one stone by painting the insides of the sockets a different colour depending on what series they were. No good for working on the insides of engines after this, because excess paint flaked off every time they were used for a while, but rusty sockets are no good for working on engines either. After a fair amount of use the paint flaked off those parts of the socket that saw load but enough remained to allow them to be identified. I think I may have picked the idea up from an old Williams 'superslim' set; IIRC these sockets were misted blue on the inside for AF and Red for whit/BSF; this isn't really warranted in your case because you only have clean metric sockets.

Something that you might like to consider is to lubricate your detent balls. Just occasionally I have found that an otherwise clean drive square has a stiff or even rusty ball/spring. I think what happens is that there is always a chance that some residue from the chrome plating solution lurks in the recess, and/or water enters and over time can cause corrosion; the ball and spring are fitted as a final step, and are usually fitted bone dry. All that is required is to depress the ball slightly and apply a drop of oil or melted waxoyl so that it flows behind the ball and coats the spring. Note that the sliding T bar in your kit contains two spring loaded balls; both will benefit from a drop of oil from time to time.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Samuel D
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Samuel D » 14 May 2019, 2:44pm

I think I prefer the suggestion of Duck Oil to VCI paper. Most of these tools are stored in a cupboard built into the corner outside wall of my bedroom. Not keen on deliberate fumes.

The 14 mm and 15 mm sockets are 19.65 mm and 20.75 mm wide respectively, to the nearest 1/20th of a millimetre. Can we tell from that and the crank extractor thread pitch whether they’d fit? I’m not sure what 22 mm (for example) indicates about a thread.

(I also have a 1/2" drive set, similarly acquired, of 6-point Facom OGV sockets. The 14 mm and 15 mm sockets are 20.75 mm and 21.70 mm wide. And indeed they look a lot chunkier than the 3/8" drive sockets.)

I’ve lubricated the detent balls per Brucey’s instructions, holding them down for their medicine with a socket half on. Didn’t find a way to access the second ball on the sliding T-bar.

Next up: hex and Torx socket bits for 1/4" (torque wrench) and/or 3/8" drive, including a long-reach 5 mm hex bit for brake levers.

Brucey
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Brucey » 14 May 2019, 4:28pm

I didn't mention this exactly before but I usually lubricate the balls by putting a drop of oil on that covers the ball completely, then working the ball up and down by prodding it with something (eg a torx key) or depressing it with pliers. With any luck you see bubbles of air emerging which means oil is going the other way.

Its a long while since I used a facom sliding T driver so I can't remember if it is one such or not, but some allow the bar to be removed completely; if so it usually just takes a smarter slide to the end than normal and off she pops; the grooves in the bar prevent release in normal use. However not all are like this.

Re VCI paper; this works best if the whole item is enclosed. Thus (in dryish conditions) just putting the kit in a plastic bag (with the end folded over) contains the vapour within the bag quite well. It will also stop the steel box from corroding as well. Stored right, with VCI paper, tools can be stored without any protective coating and be like new even years later.

I think the 3/8" drive sockets will work in a 22mm threaded crank but the 15mm 1/2" drive one won't. A ready reckoner for the tapping drill/core size for a 60 degree flank thread is to subtract the pitch measurement from the nominal thread diameter; thus if a crank extractor uses a ~1mm pitch thread then 22mm - 1mm = 21mm core size.

cheers
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Samuel D
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Samuel D » 24 May 2019, 9:53am

Brucey wrote:I didn't mention this exactly before but I usually lubricate the balls by putting a drop of oil on that covers the ball completely, then working the ball up and down by prodding it with something (eg a torx key) or depressing it with pliers. With any luck you see bubbles of air emerging which means oil is going the other way.

That worked too, right down to the bubbles.

This escalated quickly and I’ve now got a 1/4"-drive Facom set too, also old but OGV and Made in France. This ratchet (R.161) had dried grease mixed with oil in it too, but like the others was transformed by a good clean with a toothbrush and WD-40, followed by lubrication with a dollop of grease beneath the slider and machine oil on the teeth. The R.161 teeth around the inside of the ratchet head weren’t as sharp-pointed, as if they’d had their tops cut off. I first thought this was wear but it extends beyond the pawl width and looks too even to be wear. It now clicks sharply anyway, so perhaps Facom tweaked the designed from the original 151-series ratchets; or perhaps the Radio (1/4"-drive) ratchets were always different.

This 6-point set goes up to 14 mm (but not 15 mm), so here’s the width of the 14 mm sockets across the drive sizes:

18.55 mm for 1/4"-drive 6-point
19.65 mm for 3/8"-drive 12-point
20.75 mm for 1/2"-drive 6-point

These figures are slightly different from the current Facom specifications (for Made in Taiwan sockets) but the trend is the same. The bigger drive size sockets are clearly much stronger. The smaller ones prioritise thin walls.

Now I need an engine to rebuild. If I had space I’d start a Honda CG125 project.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 24 May 2019, 10:02am

Hi,
Hah, The other day someone came knocking at my door, I normally ignore him as it's salesman et cetera.
Started talking to a while to get rid of them, But no it was actually an interesting conversation.
Over 20 years ago I did a job on a motorbike, bloke lives In my village.
He's given my name to this bloke who turns out, cut a long story short, he owns a Honda XR125L.
And that motor is the same as yeah you guessed that CG.

Some days later I contact and I'll friend he's got rid of most of his stuff, after a while I realise you didn't know where I was talking about, but anyway he said he had one motor left.
Asthma Chinese CG electric start motor, The guy with the XR was talking of £340 for replacement motor with a paper guarantee.
My mate said he paid 5 pound for the motor.
Guy with the XR has already got another motor but both are poorly.
Happy days.

(Typed with speech, and you can tell can't you, you get my drift)
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You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

Brucey
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Brucey » 24 May 2019, 1:05pm

mid to premium quality tools often/usually sell at a mid to premium price because of the brand name (and sometimes the guarantee) rather than known and proven attributes per se. Most of the big brands don't even make everything they sell; Facom sockets made in Taiwan are a case in point. When you buy a Snap-On branded tool it may be something that Snap-On make themselves or it may be something that is made for Snap-On by a third party. The same can be said for lots of other tool brands. In fact some brands only sell third party-made tools; for example Draper branded tools are pretty much always made by a third party. When you buy Brand-X branded allen keys they may be manufactured by a well known brand, e.g. Bondhus, and may even say so. Other times you are left guessing.

So for many years Draper have sold an 'expert' series of tools with a lifetime warranty and the socketry seems of super quality, but I have no idea who makes them. There have been Kennedy and even Kamasa branded combination wrenches which have been 'made in (W.) Germany' and by quality, design and appearance they could be made by Heyco or Hazet.

I keep an oddments box of random sockets and spanners (mostly picked up for peanuts at car boot sales etc, but some picked up new as surplus stock ) which have the sole purpose of providing materials suitable for making special tools as needed. So when I needed some offset wrenches with a slim full ring end for accurately torqueing the head bolts on one of my motorcycles I just modified some ring spanners, shortened them, and welded the female half-inch drive end from some sockets to them. It turns out that most flavours of Cr-V steel can be welded well enough for this sort of duty. A brand new Gedore socket (that might have cost me 10p... :shock: ) meets an off-brand spanner and makes a tool that is perfect for this job. I've also made slogging spanners, Bi-Hex flare nut wrenches for limited access situations, weird extension bars and goodness knows what else this way. Obviously needs must when the devil drives etc and in the past I have occasionally ruined a set of spanners or sockets in order to be able to make a special tool to get a job done. If it turns out later you can't buy an exact replacement for the butchered item, this tends to leave a very bad taste in your mouth; hence the existence of the oddments box.

Anyway I was rifling through the oddments box the other day and I pulled out a somewhat bent 'Kamasa W.Germany' spanner. The fate of this spanner is to be either used as is or turned into something else. Out of curiosity I decided to try and straighten it; it was little use as it was (although someone had deliberately bent it for a particular job, with two ~5 degree bends in the shank), and if it broke during straightening, I'd probably not bother with spanners of that sort for making special tools with either. To my surprise the spanner straightened OK, and manifested no signs of distress as a result. Which is more than I can say for myself; I ended up with the spanner in a bench vice and the force on it (which was only achieved with the aid of a substantial cheater bar) was so high that the bench was starting to move around. The spanner itself bent elastically so far that I thought it was going to snap before it yielded. I was somewhat troubled by this idea (the pieces would have flown about like shrapnel) but I managed to reset the thing OK. As a result I can confirm that these spanners are indeed made of very good quality steel, comparable with the Heyco branded ones they so closely resemble.

My most recent used tool purchase is a 'Craftsman' branded 3/8" drive ratchet, like the middle one here
Image
there are several different versions of this tool; mine is the one with a figure 8 shaped access plate at the back, secured with a circlip, USA made, with a thumb reverser and a pushbutton release. 'Craftsman' is essentially Sears and Roebuck's own brand and their spanners/socketry were for may years made by the same foundries as supplied vastly more prestigious American tool brands and carried a good lifetime warranty too. These days a lot of their stuff comes from the far east and is of less assured quality; plus ca change and all that.... but older used Craftsman stuff is always worth having and the 3/8" drive ratchet I bought (which has seen almost no use) cost me less than a fiver.

cheers
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Samuel D
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Samuel D » 24 May 2019, 5:46pm

The Honda CG is an old favourite of mine because they were everywhere in Brazil where I spent part of my youth. (They were made in Manaus for a long time.) It was on a CG125 that I learned to ride a motorcycle … on a public road with no training and no helmet … at night … trying to impress the girl riding pillion. In retrospect it’s surprising I lived. The engine is fascinatingly simple, with a single lobe on a single camshaft driving intake and exhaust valves via pushrods and rockers. It doesn’t get much simpler than that. My kind of engine.

The only true CGs still being made are in Pakistan, where you can buy a new one from Atlas Honda for about 700 euros. Over 90% of the parts are Pakistani made. Pakistan has a weirdly protected car and motorcycle market where imports are heavily taxed to encourage local production. Maybe that’s why Atlas Honda has been able to keep making the same machine with innovation limited to new graphics on the fuel tank every year.

Everywhere else the CG died due to failing to meet emissions regs. I’ve wondered why Honda didn’t add fuel injection. But a CG125 from 2007 or 2008 (the last two years of European sales) is bizarrely allowed into Paris’s low-emissions zone (the whole city during work hours), so I could still ride one here. Kinda tempting! I sometimes miss my Vespa. Wrong forum.

Speaking of the elasticity of tool steel, I once pulled an open-ended spanner around a rusted nut so hard that the jaws sprung open and released the nut for one-sixth of a turn … without permanently deforming (except small dents where the corners sat). That impressed me. It was an inexpensive Draper.

Brucey
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Brucey » 25 May 2019, 12:01am

the last CG125 I owned I bought for a friend of mine who wanted a cheap bike to learn on, many years ago. Unfortunately the only machine that was within budget was about 80 miles away and had been standing, part-disassembled, for some time. Anyway off I went to collect the remains and -amazingly- but with, ahem, some further disassembly said CG125 fitted into the back of the then Bruceymobile, a mini Metro..... :shock: and was lugged back.

I laid my spanners on it in the depths of a lockup garage and before too long I had produced a working motorcycle and it passed the MOT despite lacking the finishing touches (such as an air filter, ahem). However what it wouldn't do is run slowly for more than five minutes... The naivety of youth.... Because the CG125 was a simple machine and I didn't have one handy, no need for a workshop manual. I also supposed that the parts I had collected constituted a complete motorcycle....which of course they didn't, not quite (I have since found that with any part disassembled motorcycle they never do; Elves must eat them or something, there are always some missing...). I was slightly suspicious there was something not quite right when it became clear that the studs that held the carburettor on seemed longer than they needed to be. Had I had the air filter assembly it would have become obvious; it would never have reached the carburettor because there was a part missing, an insulating spacer that went between the cylinder head and the carburettor. Without it, after a few minutes of slow running, the carb ran warm enough to throw the mixture off. Weirdly you could ride at speed for some distance and the carb kept itself cool enough (airflow and vaporising fuel) that this didn't happen.

Honestly I don't think the world would be a very much worse place if most motorcycles were still as simply built as bikes like a CG125. The same writ large would be a lot like old British bikes but without the oil leaks and (if a balance shaft and/or rubber engine mounts were fitted) without the vibrations either. FWIW the Honda engines that go in Honda lawnmowers remind me quite strongly of the CG125 lump.

cheers
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 25 May 2019, 2:40pm

Hi,
I am drawn back into the dark art of getting my hands dirty lifting motors on and off the floor to the bench, not forgetting the boot of car.
Ouch my back :(

I will have to do some digging on the cg and xr125l.
Two part dismantled stuffed motors xr electric start.
One cg Chinese? with a kick start and electric start no clutch cover, which has a hole for kick start shaft.
will the cg motor fit the xr mountings ?
if yes then just clutch cover needed with a hole.
if no then swap the crank and use best of rest to build motor.

Internal gears may be different, minor detail just adjust the final drive sprocket.

I have at least 20 xl xr xlr 124 or is that 122 -124? - 185 - 200 OHC honda motors, mostly derived from cb100.
But no knowledge at all with the cg, tiger cubs yes, the former is intetesting.
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You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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Gattonero
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby Gattonero » 26 May 2019, 10:26am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Crikey its only a ratchet :)
I must be missing something :?


Indeed.

I've one of those ratchets that has had daily use for the last 15 years. The pawls and spring have been changed twice, put two drops of a bicycle oil that I know it won't "gunk-up", and that was all. No trouble to look when there isn't 8)
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Lubricants for ratchet mechanisms

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 26 May 2019, 10:46am

Hi,
Gattonero wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Crikey its only a ratchet :)
I must be missing something :?


Indeed.

I've one of those ratchets that has had daily use for the last 15 years. The pawls and spring have been changed twice, put two drops of a bicycle oil that I know it won't "gunk-up", and that was all. No trouble to look when there isn't 8)

I have been pressing down on and oiling my balls Where fitted forever.
But I am very glad I no longer have to oil my Free Wheel ratchet :)

Sorry, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not :P Never mind.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..