Facial Recognition by the Authorities

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mercalia
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby mercalia » 21 May 2019, 6:32am

first challenge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48315979
lots of follow up refs here
seems like has been going on for some time and in quite afew places
has been banned in san francisko usa

Bonefishblues
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 May 2019, 7:04am

And completely unregulated - which is where the law is failing to keep up with the pace of technology development.

thirdcrank
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby thirdcrank » 21 May 2019, 7:26am

From merc's link:-
"By the time I was close enough to see the words 'automatic facial recognition' on the van, I had already had my data captured by it.


With apologies for making light of a serious subject, he'd had to plough through ADNABOD WYNEBAU WEDI EI GOSOD (E&OE)

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Sweep
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Sweep » 21 May 2019, 7:40am

Questions - do the authorities have to display a sign saying what they are doing at a particular location?
Do they announce them in advance?
Is it an offence to cover your face?
If 2 applies I can see demos of innocently masked folk happening.

In case anyone has any doubt i find the use if this tech appalling.

Hardly "community policing" is it?
Sweep

Bonefishblues
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 May 2019, 7:44am

But if correctly implemented, it has the potential for great benefit - we live in a surveillance world. I repeat my call for a proper Bill of Rights to regulate this and much else (like CCTV, for instance, where we are world 'leaders')

mercalia
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby mercalia » 21 May 2019, 9:17am

I wonder what would happen if you got out your smartphone and started taking pictures of the cops faces?

Bonefishblues
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 May 2019, 9:21am

mercalia wrote:I wonder what would happen if you got out your smartphone and started taking pictures of the cops faces?

Nothing.

That's now a regular scenario for Police, who I assume are now well used to it, and well trained in that regard.

thirdcrank
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby thirdcrank » 21 May 2019, 9:25am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:I wonder what would happen if you got out your smartphone and started taking pictures of the cops faces?

Nothing.

That's now a regular scenario for Police, who I assume are now well used to it, and well trained in that regard.


In the various police chase type documentaries etc., I do seem to see quite a few with half their mush covered. (ie I'm not talking about so-called police procedure dramas of the Line of Duty genre.)

mercalia
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby mercalia » 21 May 2019, 9:28am

Sweep wrote:Questions - do the authorities have to display a sign saying what they are doing at a particular location?
Do they announce them in advance?
Is it an offence to cover your face?
If 2 applies I can see demos of innocently masked folk happening.

In case anyone has any doubt i find the use if this tech appalling.

Hardly "community policing" is it?


you can imagine these will spring up all over the place like the speeding cameras, documenting the citizens in town centres in pesdestrian streets. seems to me need to develop a slouch and walk looking at the ground & get a large brimmned cowboy hat?

or this

Image

with bag over your shoulder labelled "Swag"
Last edited by mercalia on 21 May 2019, 10:10am, edited 2 times in total.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 May 2019, 9:42am

OTOH we could perhaps work out how to control this, and speculate whether, for instance, the Manchester Bomber, who was on a watch list IIRC, might have been intercepted when walking into an Araina Grande concert?

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Sweep
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Sweep » 21 May 2019, 12:32pm

Bonefishblues wrote:OTOH we could perhaps work out how to control this, and speculate whether, for instance, the Manchester Bomber, who was on a watch list IIRC, might have been intercepted when walking into an Araina Grande concert?

Don't see that as relevant to be honest.

I fear you are fearmongering in an attempt to ditch liberties.

He could have put a bomb anywhere.

You do know there are a lot of people/crowds in manchester?

That unfortunate incident was a possible failure of intelligence (don't recall the full details).

I appreciate that the authorities have a tough job.

Though I do hope that you aren't going to counter with something along the lines of: "but wot if it was your mother"
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 May 2019, 12:46pm

Sweep wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:OTOH we could perhaps work out how to control this, and speculate whether, for instance, the Manchester Bomber, who was on a watch list IIRC, might have been intercepted when walking into an Araina Grande concert?

Don't see that as relevant to be honest.

I fear you are fearmongering in an attempt to ditch liberties.

He could have put a bomb anywhere.

You do know there are a lot of people/crowds in manchester?

That unfortunate incident was a possible failure of intelligence (don't recall the full details).

I appreciate that the authorities have a tough job.

Though I do hope that you aren't going to counter with something along the lines of: "but wot if it was your mother"

Who is fearmongering? I think that grossly misrepresents what I have consistently said on this thread - and I do think I've been very clear.

We have a new technology. It is developing rapidly. It has great potential for good - and bad.

We have the potential to harness it, and my pov is we should do just that, if we can.

If we do that we may be able to stop atrocities of the kind which happened in major urban centres in the last two-three years, about one of which we are hearing at the moment. It would IMHO be to misuse it to apprehend Joe Scroggins, minor shoplifter.

No, I'm not fearmongering, but I would welcome input from others who care to use a less emotive term as to my pov.

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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Vorpal » 21 May 2019, 2:12pm

Facial recognition software is not accurate. this article has good references https://www.flawedfacedata.com/

There is racial bias, though this partly due to the fact that it is learning software, and the faces used in training algorithms influence the bias https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... ms/476991/

San Francisco have banned the police from using it https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/14/us/f ... cisco.html

A number of British police forces have been using facial recognition software, with little success

https://www.softwaretestingnews.co.uk/m ... in-london/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 45036.html

On the other hand, China seems to have had some success implementing it https://www.businessinsider.com/how-chi ... riminals-3

But according to this article, bussinesses in China also use facial recognition like Google uses your online presence, to predict orders at fast food places or shopping...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... r-festival

But maybe they can use it on the roads to identify drivers, so the police can no longer answer that the driver could not be identified...
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Bonefishblues
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 May 2019, 2:29pm

The earlier link I posted suggested that it is highly application-specific, i.e. the algorithms vary in quality, but at its best it is now very reliable. It also suggests it's making great strides in terms of quality - one wouldn't expect otherwise in the current technological climate. Describing it as 'not accurate' is a generalisation.

There is a latent gender and racial bias, seemingly.

SF has indeed banned it - if anywhere was going to be in that vanguard, then SF's a likely candidate.

So what's to do? Is it the case that we should put this in a cupboard, just as the railway pioneers did when Huskisson was killed :D

To be clear, I am not saying this is fully resolved, but the way to deal with this is surely not for a random case to be brought under the Human Rights Act, we have to be more proactive than that, surely? Or is our legislature tied up with other matters, I wonder?

thirdcrank
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Re: Facial Recognition by the Authorities

Postby thirdcrank » 21 May 2019, 3:15pm

I know little of the detail of this technology, but I could rival the length of the Brexit thread in one post. I'll try to keep this brief.

Obviously, this is coming to a police force near you with the inevitability of ATMs, self-service checkouts and all the rest. It's probably a bit like automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) but more intrusive and much harder to get right. In the early days, ANPR was unreliable to the point of being useless and made worse by the rubbish database at what used to be the DVLC and little standardisation of reg plates. I was doing grandad's taxi service on Sunday and overtook a "builder's" tranny van towing a caravan on the M62. The back reg plate on the caravan was heavily disguised with black tape. ie Blatantly, presumably triggering every ANPR and no eyebrows other than mine raised: already, the patrolling police have gone the same way as the bank counter clerks, checkout operators and all the rest.

The tape thing makes me wonder what would happen if somebody appeared dressed as Canio, perhaps singing Vesti la giubba

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More to the point, what if it were to be a troupe of pagliacci?

I did think about a bunch of protesters masked like the Lone Ranger or some cowboy but that might trigger an armed response.

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