** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[mjr]

Indeed, as made clear in this advert that was produced for Stronger In but they refused to use:

Doh! And that is what some folk class as evidence....

Who classed it as evidence? Can you not tell the difference between adverts and evidence?

The dirty tactics and shallow so-called arguments are very disappointing.

[Cugel]

The only thing that needs moderation is moderation itself. It is the so the called wholesome hovis moderates that have got us in this mess in the first place. Moderation has been the new extremism for decades now. Freedom of speech and democracy have never been so weak since 1653. Politicians are to be prosecuted for telling the odd porky pie, (isn't that in their job description). Imagine that we only have honest politicians, I doubt even the most liberal bubble brain can do that. It all stinks of bio engineered morality.

And here we have it. 1984 made flesh and articulated by this poster.

Yes yes 1984 is here...pilgrims to nowhwhere and we have arrived.
Was reading the Chronicles of Cugel and some of it actually made sense.

"...some of it actually made sense"?! I'll have you know that I only emit total sense of the purest and most irrefutable kind. Just ask Allypally.

But wait.... you may be Allypally. If not perhaps his long lost twin.

Cugel, as yet uncloned (I think).

[PDQ Mobile]

Food will get cheaper post Brexit thats my opinion. Opinions can vary.

For many African countries food exports is all they have. Spread some of our wealth by buying it. Roll on Brexit!

Al

The idea that the UK can source it's non-native grown food requirement from Africa seems to demonstrate all that's awry with the "system".

While "spreading some of our wealth" sounds laudable most of the monies will go to the transporters and the middle men.
And because of different rules and currencies there will be far more of them, for a start.

I would sooner buy stuff from relatively poor Romania and help bring them into more of a european standard.
To transport basic foodstuffs, that can be grown near at hand,such a vast distance seems so idiotic, such a waste of the fuel resource.

I am not against importing some stuff.
We do that already. A great deal of wine,from the Americas and elsewhere, if the empty boxes in my local Tesco are any guide.
And some more exotic fruits, that like or need a different climate.
That makes at least some sense.

Indeed the very fact that so much food is already sourced from outside the EU demonstrates the false claims about the "protectionist" EU.

To allow ourselves to be food dependent on the political uncertainties of Africa would be folly.
We need to support our own farmers, I am in favour of that.
Pete75 point about why should agriculture be different to other industries has been often raised.
I would say that food is different.
The high subsidies of the past which resulted in butter mountains etc have mostly been "adjusted" for more sensible measured help.
The stark choice remains however; if UK farmers don't make a reasonable living then our food security is threatened. No Govt, could or should support that, IMV.

We compete quite well with other EU countries in the sector and our exports are an important contributor to the economy both rural and to the Exchequer.
We have shared expertise and innovation with our EU partners and also tried to limit the spread of disease, something that is an ever present threat.
I would prefer local food production but I recognise the realities of large scale savings, and the influence of different soil and climate types.
The present system is not perfect but it's not broken. IMHO.

[Paulatic]

Food will get cheaper post Brexit thats my opinion. Opinions can vary.

For many African countries food exports is all they have. Spread some of our wealth by buying it. Roll on Brexit!
Al

Can you give an insight to that opinion?
Personally I can’t see it.
For imported food how is the UK going to get a better deal than the EU? Unless of course we buy the stuff the EU won’t buy.
For home grown foods do you believe the U.K. Gov will equal or exceed the current support given to farmers. Scotland was quite a money earner in the LFA qualifying ground which was distributed to English farmers. Which btw Gove has admitted to and said he won’t pay it back.
Or are you driven, as Barnier suggests this morning, by nostalgia? I well remember agricultural support prior to EU. Marketing boards, guaranteed payments, Hill sheep schemes. All of them were open to fraud and were not policed anything like EU support. Nearly forgot "Fixed costs" grants you could build an agricultural building using secondhand materials pass it off as new and make a profit. Green dyed potatoes NFS Hey nostalgia is getting the better of me. They were easy days for fraud.

You might well find some cheap lamb in the next year or two until Brits buy more or the sheep population drops. Shepherd all my life but I won’t buy it no matter how cheap it gets.

[Mick F]

I attended a lecture back in 1990 about the Commonwealth. Part of the lecture was that the Commonwealth could be a trading unit in goods, and that despite European unit (that we're in now of course) we could trade with them instead. The Commonwealth of Nations is a worldwide community of likeminded countries, and we don't use it properly.

It wasn't set up like that of course, but we could all benefit if it were.

[Mike Sales]

I attended a lecture back in 1990 about the Commonwealth. Part of the lecture was that the Commonwealth could be a trading unit in goods, and that despite European unit (that we're in now of course) we could trade with them instead. The Commonwealth of Nations is a worldwide community of likeminded countries, and we don't use it properly.

It wasn't set up like that of course, but we could all benefit if it were.

Commonwealth Preference was tried in the Thirties, but for some reason did not last.

[PDQ Mobile]

In some respects the EU resembles the Commonwealth!
Though without the Colonial past baggage!

[mjr]

In some respects the EU resembles the Commonwealth!
Though without the Colonial past baggage!

Strange is that! It's almost like some of the same countries were involved in both, isn't it? Next you'll be telling us that it has a yellow-on-blue flag...

I also note that the other EU countries in the Commonwealth means that there is a practical problem with turning the Commonwealth into a trade area in the event of a no-deal, because we would effectively be negotiating with the EU who will insist on some resolution to the border dispute and the UK reneging on project and pension commitments and the other things which have derailed May's agreement.

[PDQ Mobile]

So Trump endorses Boris!
An endorsement from a man who was "gonna build a big wall" but is now resorting to talking about tariffs and sanctions!
Windbag!

Senator Bolton, the warmonger man, and extreme rightwinger, says Britain should leave the EU. (Daily Telegraph). And he should stay over there in the US of A and sort out his own societal problems.

Farage is in "talks" with Italy's (and others) far right; (what's all that about? Farage wants to leave no?)
"Just leave Mate, if you have the balls, though there is doubt about that!"

Bannon is in Europe stirring trouble, and with the stated aim of promoting chaos.

Our own failed and nasty self obsessed Govt. still propped up by the DUP, (where's the monkey and the grinder there?).
The DUP, a party that have always found even the simplest compromise most extraordinarily difficult, (I am being kind here!).

It's all going so terribly well.
Be careful what you wish for.
............

And just over the channel there are a few half sensible and cultured folks that try to find some compromise on complex issues.
Not resorted to soundbites.
Promoted free trade within the block. Have a reasonable human rights record, have promoted better workers rights and tried to do something for the environment.

If I wasn't such a cheerful optimist it could get me down.

[Mick F]

I asked hundreds(?) of pages back, what would all you Remain folk want?
The Leave people are clear - leave in accordance with the referendum - though not clear on how of course, and that's the sticking point.

The Remain people want what?
Rematch?
Forget the whole thing?

[Lance Dopestrong]

though not clear on how of course, and that's the sticking point.

I'm an in-betweenie (tm), so have the rare advantage of being a detached observer of both camps.

As I recall from the campaign there was very little talk of any kind of negotiated deal, contract, settlement, call it what you will. The outties were sold a campaign on "out". The official out campaign and the next biggest, Farage's, were not selling the prospect of any kind of significant deal to the public as their primary stance as a means of leaving, or as a prerequisite for doing so.

It is since the referrendum that talk of the deal quickly came to the fore, and that was in large part driven by remainers, like May, not the outties.

So from my rare persepective I could see that out meant out in the way it was sold, and all this talk of deals etc is nothing more than the deliberate muddying of the waters in an attempt to delay or even halt entire the prospect of us ever leaving. That's fair enough - if the vote had gone the other way I'm sure the outties would be calling for a renegotiation with the EU, citing their significant vote share as a mandate for such a thing. But there's little doubt, out meant out (that rhymes, I'm the brexit poet laureat!) in the manner in which it was campaigned.

[thirdcrank]

... As I recall from the campaign there was very little talk of any kind of negotiated deal, contract, settlement, call it what you will ...

As Eric Morecambe might have said, mostly the right words, but not necessarily in the right order.

As I recall, the talk was that the EU would be desperate to negotiate a deal on our terms, and we'd barely have time for them as we'd be so busy arranging deals with the other countries in a disorderly queue fighting for our business.

[PDQ Mobile]

Mr Dopestrong your memory decieves you, the first Brexit secretary (and others) stated(my paraphrase) "they would be falling over themselves for a deal".
And in some respects he WAS right in that the EU has shown a real willingness to negociate.
It is the UK's ERG and others that voted down an agreement.
And if I might add Farage is now openly talking to other EU parties, whose mandate is not leaving but reform(AIUI).
(And some other less than liberal stuff!) So what's that all about?
Cunobelin below, thinks Farage only wants a partial exit now! That is ceratainly not the platform he recently stood upon or?
Genuinely interested in your take on it.

......

Mick in (an attempted) short answer to your question; use the clear mandate of dissatifaction within the UK to renegociate our relationship with Brussels.
But stay around the table.

Indeed it has been argued that is what many leave leaders actually wanted.

But hey, I am but a simple farmer etc...

[Cunobelin]

So Trump endorses Boris!
An endorsement from a man who was "gonna build a big wall" but is now resorting to talking about tariffs and sanctions!
Windbag!

Senator Bolton, the warmonger man, and extreme rightwinger, says Britain should leave the EU. (Daily Telegraph). And he should stay over there in the US of A and sort out his own societal problems.

Farage is in "talks" with Italy's (and others) far right; (what's all that about? Farage wants to leave no?)
"Just leave Mate, if you have the balls, though there is doubt about that!"

Bannon is in Europe stirring trouble, and with the stated aim of promoting chaos.

Our own failed and nasty self obsessed Govt. still propped up by the DUP, (where's the monkey and the grinder there?).
The DUP, a party that have always found even the simplest compromise most extraordinarily difficult, (I am being kind here!).

It's all going so terribly well.
Be careful what you wish for.
............

And just over the channel there are a few half sensible and cultured folks that try to find some compromise on complex issues.
Not resorted to soundbites.
Promoted free trade within the block. Have a reasonable human rights record, have promoted better workers rights and tried to do something for the environment.

If I wasn't such a cheerful optimist it could get me down.

Farage wants a partial exit.... he wants to keep the financial bit where he gets a £170,000 pay off and £73,000 a year pension.

Ho does NOT want a clean break

[Cunobelin]