Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
landsurfer
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 12 Jun 2019, 12:26pm

Vorpal wrote:Equal rights are equal. It doesn't mean someone else gets anything less.


Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 12 Jun 2019, 12:32pm

landsurfer wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Equal rights are equal. It doesn't mean someone else gets anything less.


Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.

They aren't men.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 Jun 2019, 12:42pm

In some ways they're not completely one or the other gender. It's a complex issue but for sport to work out needs to be simple. Perhaps equality needs to be a side issue with sport. In normal life they're women, but in competitive sport they're a different category unless they're put in a position where their route to being a woman has no advantage competitively. It's a sensitive issue especially with people's feelings/emotions involved.

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 12 Jun 2019, 1:24pm

Vorpal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Equal rights are equal. It doesn't mean someone else gets anything less.


Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.

They aren't men.


Only by some arbitrary and meaningless declaration. Anyone can declare themselves of 'male' or 'female' gender, yet there is no objective reality to this declaration; there are some people even claiming to be male or female on different days.

Certainly a man can take steps to conform to certain gender stereotypes, and take female sexual hormones, and androgen-suppressants, but they cannot reverse his male puberty, nor his male genetics. There are men with prostate cancer with no testosterone, but that doesn't make them 'not men'.

In some contexts we would ignore this, as if an individual wishes for us to perceive them as female, then it would be nice of us to do so, so why not? But in a sporting context, it is fundamental, since the strength difference between males and females is so universal, and is greater than any genetic advantage that has ever been identified, so it would be ridiculous for us to treat biological males as females, when they retain male skeletons, msucle/body fat that is less than natal females, and so on.

That is quite outwith the ludicrous spectacle of trying to hamper these males' performance with various rules, such as testosterone restrictions. The concept of a 'gender identity' has been taken by many to now be entirely arbitrary, so you have conventional-looking men with beards identifying as transgender. And of course they are right, since there is no objective standard by which someone can be adjudged 'transfemale' or 'transmale', since not all females conform to such stereotypes; therefore the claim to be transgender or a transwoman is one that is without meaning.

Of course a 'transwoman' can reduce testosterone levels, as is the requirement for many sporting codes, but this is quite arbitrary, and many transgender advocates would argue that transwomen can have male testosterone levels, and that the only requirement to be transgender is that you say you are.

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 13 Jun 2019, 9:36am

thelawnet wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Tell that to the women cyclists being beaten by men in women's events.

They aren't men.


Only by some arbitrary and meaningless declaration. Anyone can declare themselves of 'male' or 'female' gender, yet there is no objective reality to this declaration; there are some people even claiming to be male or female on different days.

Male / female as a binary is a societal construction. Although the majority of humans fit this, not all do, and some cultures recognise multiple genders, or view gender as a spectrum.

As long as we insist upon an arbitrary division of sexes, we will have issues like this. Some will say that sex is defined by chromosomes and hormones. Others will say it is defined by gender.

To define it by sex will always discriminate against some of those who do not fit male / female binary. Although some transgender people have made news by winning at sports, they are a tiny, tiny minority of athletes, and I cannot imagine that ever changing. If we must define things in such a manner, we need to split it according to how people legally declare themselves. To do otherwise will lead to continued discrimination.

Some states in the USA have laws requiring people in school sports to compete with people who belong to the same biological sex. This results in (transgender) men and boys competing with girls. When they win it's unfair. The alternative is to allow transgender women to compete with women. When they win it's unfair.

Nobody ever says it's unfair for transgender men to compete with other men. That alone tells me that the objection is based in bias / sexism.
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thelawnet
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 13 Jun 2019, 10:17am

Vorpal wrote:
thelawnet wrote:
Vorpal wrote:They aren't men.


Only by some arbitrary and meaningless declaration. Anyone can declare themselves of 'male' or 'female' gender, yet there is no objective reality to this declaration; there are some people even claiming to be male or female on different days.

Male / female as a binary is a societal construction. Although the majority of humans fit this, not all do, and some cultures recognise multiple genders, or view gender as a spectrum.


As long as we insist upon an arbitrary division of sexes, we will have issues like this. Some will say that sex is defined by chromosomes and hormones. Others will say it is defined by gender.


Sex IS binary. There are small gametes (sperm) and large gametes (eggs). No human possesses both. No human with a Y chromosome possesses eggs, and no human without one possesses sperm.

There are regressive and homophobic cultures where for instance gay men, particularly those who may be perceived as effeminate, are encouraged to become a third gender. In India and Thailand, physical castration of gay, teenage boys is common.

The fact that these cultures push such men into these cruel pigeonholes, where as I understand it 'transgenders' in India are reduced to petty crime and begging, does not for a moment distract from the fact that sex is binary, and gender is an arbitrary construct. Biology doesn't care whether you identify as female - if you are biologically male, you are almost certainly stronger than the average biological female

To define it by sex will always discriminate against some of those who do not fit male / female binary. Although some transgender people have made news by winning at sports, they are a tiny, tiny minority of athletes, and I cannot imagine that ever changing. If we must define things in such a manner, we need to split it according to how people legally declare themselves. To do otherwise will lead to continued discrimination.


Arguing that numbers are low is silly - you might as well say Lance Armstrong was only one cheat. One is enough to deprive a lot of people their rightful position, earnings , fame, etc.

In terms of transgender male-to-female, they fit perfectly in the male binary in that they grew up with testicles producing testosterone which androgenized their bodies. The fact that they might have now reduced testosterone or grown their hair or whatever does not change their biology which is unambiguously male.
Some states in the USA have laws requiring people in school sports to compete with people who belong to the same biological sex. This results in (transgender) men and boys competing with girls. When they win it's unfair. The alternative is to allow transgender women to compete with women. When they win it's unfair.


Well, no. As I understand it, there is a female-to-male wrestler who has a TUE to take steroids to become male. Who is then competing against girls due to state law. The obvious solution is not to grant the TUE, and to prohibit them from competing.

Nobody ever says it's unfair for transgender men to compete with other men. That alone tells me that the objection is based in bias / sexism.


Because they get thrashed! Dead last! No transgender man has ever won an elite male sporting event. It's nothing to do with sexism, it's just that there are zero instances of females transitioning to males getting stronger relative to their previous sex, and lots of instances of males transitioning to females getting much stronger, such as Laurel Hubbard , who won a World Championship silver weightlifting medal, aged 39, after giving up weightlifting as a junior, because his lifts were too mediocre, even in New Zealand and with a very rich father backing him

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Jun 2019, 10:20am

Vorpal wrote: ... Nobody ever says it's unfair for transgender men to compete with other men. That alone tells me that the objection is based in bias / sexism.


That's possibly because there's no obvious advantage to a transgender man. I wonder if many, if any, transgender men compete against men. :?

I agree that nothing is clear-cut. I remember a few years ago a letter to the editor from a wiseacre complaining about the publicity given to the Paralympics. His sneer was along the lines that everybody knows that a man with two legs can run faster than a man with an artificial leg and a man with one leg can run faster than a man with two artificial legs. ie Somebody who can never have seen how fast amputee athletes (T 41/46?) can shift with blades.

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Vorpal » 13 Jun 2019, 12:36pm

Transgender men do compete against other men.

They are less likely to make the news or be as prominent. The ones that are prominent, for the most part, are also activists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/04/t ... r-compete/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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thelawnet
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thelawnet » 13 Jun 2019, 5:57pm

Vorpal wrote:Transgender men do compete against other men.

They are less likely to make the news or be as prominent. The ones that are prominent, for the most part, are also activists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuyler_Bailar

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/04/t ... r-compete/


The reason they are activists is because they stand no hope of winning. A nice sponsorship from Nike is quite another matter

Bailar's PBs score last place

https://www.collegeswimming.com/results ... me14493692
https://www.collegeswimming.com/results ... me14493692

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cyclemad
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby cyclemad » 17 Jun 2019, 8:27pm

ladies and Gents.

I appreciate that we all have varying views on this subject and for most the term 'free speech'' is used. However this is a publicly accessible forum and as such it is open t everyone , be it supporters or those against transgender people and their rights etc.

All our comments as such may be subject to public scrutiny and checks by not only the forum admins but also by the authourities and although some may disagree with ''big brother'' policing the internet it is a fact of life nowadays.

So please take time to reflect on the contents of posts as you may be subject to investigation which may then result in a hate crime being recorded. Please read on further as you will you will note from below - A hate crime incident does not have to be directed against a specific individual etc. So ''general comments''. or ''I just wanted to point out'' can be construed as hate crime.


What is homophobic and transphobic hate crime?

Hate crimes and incidents are any crime or incident which is targeted at a victim because of the offender's hostility or prejudice against an identifiable group of people.

So any incident or crime, which is perceived to be motivated because of a person's sexual orientation or transgender identity - either their actual sexual orientation or gender identity or as perceived by the offender - will be recorded as such. Hate crimes can be committed against a person or property.

A homophobic hate crime is:

“Any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on a person’s sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation.”

A transphobic hate crime is:

“Any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender.”


and if anyone wishes to message me direct I can elaborate further if required.

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby landsurfer » 17 Jun 2019, 8:37pm

Sorry i don't agree ...
Free speech cannot be trumped by disagreement with anothers opinion, how ever strongly held.
" Hate .. have an intense dislike for ".

I do not hate men who dress up as women to gain advantage in sport, i believe they are misrepresenting themselves and are cheats.
I do not hate them.

I do not hate men who dress up as women as part of a lifestyle choice. My son spent 3 years living full time as "Kate ". I do not hate him, actually i love him to bits.

I do not have any hatred towards transgender people.
I do not like sporting cheats.

I believe i have the right to say that in our society.
The Road Goes On Forever ...

thirdcrank
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Jun 2019, 8:41pm

cyclemad

Speaking personally, I don't find your latest post much help. I'm inferring from it - perhaps wrongly - that you feel that some of the posts have been inappropriate or possibly worse. If so, IMO the solution is to continue to challenge them or if it's worse than that, a report to the mods or in extreme cases to the police. I'm generally too obtuse to read between the lines.

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cyclemad
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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby cyclemad » 20 Jun 2019, 5:14pm

read the post.......I am merely drawing everyone attention - not pointing at any single person - but to make you aware of the sensitive nature of the subject and the potential for someone to become offended by what someone MAY post. Not only can a person be offended and report to the mods etc but as its a public forum ANYONE can pick up on what is being posted and then report the comments to the relevant authorities.....

Just wanted to advise ...etc etc

and should anyone post comments which I or anyone I would assume would find offensive you can be assured that I would challenge that persons behaviour and not only bring it to the attention of the MODS but if so required I wold also report their comments to the Police.

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby SimonCelsa » 20 Jun 2019, 8:37pm

Crikey I wish that I hadn't read this post. What a load of crock, I'm going to tell the teacher on you!!

Sorry, each to their own and all that but come on..............

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Re: Transgender woman wins cycling championship

Postby Pastychomper » 21 Jun 2019, 11:15am

landsurfer wrote:Sorry i don't agree ...
Free speech cannot be trumped by disagreement with anothers opinion, how ever strongly held.
" Hate .. have an intense dislike for ".

I do not hate men who dress up as women to gain advantage in sport, i believe they are misrepresenting themselves and are cheats.
I do not hate them.

I do not hate men who dress up as women as part of a lifestyle choice. My son spent 3 years living full time as "Kate ". I do not hate him, actually i love him to bits.

I do not have any hatred towards transgender people.
I do not like sporting cheats.

I believe i have the right to say that in our society.


Bingo. There is a world of difference between disagreeing with a person's views and hating the person.

It's my impression that that difference is deliberately ignored by a vocal minority of activists in several areas. I consider that a shame because those activists are not only undermining their own position but making it harder for other people to raise legitimate questions and concerns.
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