Gravel Bikes Advice Required

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby Bonefishblues » 24 Jun 2019, 10:08am

Just apropos of this debate, is there anywhere a practical illustration in mm of the effect on say a 54cm frame of the incremental tightening of the seat tube angle? That is, how far does it move things fore or aft, all other things being equal?

Were I better at geometry I might have a go myself, but this is the internet age and someone will have already done it, I'm sure!

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 10:23am

Bonefishblues wrote:Just apropos of this debate, is there anywhere a practical illustration in mm of the effect on say a 54cm frame of the incremental tightening of the seat tube angle? That is, how far does it move things fore or aft, all other things being equal?

Were I better at geometry I might have a go myself, but this is the internet age and someone will have already done it, I'm sure!

IIRC it's about 1cm per degree on a medium sized frame,which can make all the difference.
FWIW:-
Sonder Camino medium and large both share a 74degree STA with the XL being 73degrees
Pinnicle Arkose is 73.5 degrees across the range.
Both of which are bonkers IMO.
I can't find geometry figures for the Boardman,they musn't think it important :?
Last edited by reohn2 on 24 Jun 2019, 10:25am, edited 1 time in total.
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robc02
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Location: Stafford

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby robc02 » 24 Jun 2019, 10:24am

One degree change is approx. 1cm back or forth for saddle heights in the "normal" range. For a better approximation measure centre of BB to top of saddle and multiply by Sine of one degree (or whatever angular increment you want).

mnichols
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Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby mnichols » 24 Jun 2019, 10:48am

reohn2 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Just apropos of this debate, is there anywhere a practical illustration in mm of the effect on say a 54cm frame of the incremental tightening of the seat tube angle? That is, how far does it move things fore or aft, all other things being equal?

Were I better at geometry I might have a go myself, but this is the internet age and someone will have already done it, I'm sure!

IIRC it's about 1cm per degree on a medium sized frame,which can make all the difference.
FWIW:-
Sonder Camino medium and large both share a 74degree STA with the XL being 73degrees
Pinnicle Arkose is 73.5 degrees across the range.
Both of which are bonkers IMO.
I can't find geometry figures for the Boardman,they musn't think it important :?


Is that bonkers compared to a road bike or mountain bike? I think of my Camino as somewhere between the two, it's a bit like a drop-bar mountain bike, but less upright. I think I'm more over the pedals that a road bike and that enables me to use more quads, also the flared drops allow me to tuck my elbows in and get quite aero on the flat, and the extra width makes it very stable on the technical stuff

It might be something that shouldn't or doesn't work on paper but works in practice. Maybe it's just new and unconventional. All that I can say is that it works for me, and according to the owners pages for the other people that have it. It's great going up hills - I took it through the Himalayas last year and had some great times going up the big climbs, and it was amazingly stable and planted coming down

Try it - you might be a convert!

mnichols
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Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby mnichols » 24 Jun 2019, 10:49am

Love my Camino. Love it Love it Love it....I think I'm going to give it a polish now

reohn2
Posts: 36773
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 11:05am

mnichols wrote:Is that bonkers compared to a road bike or mountain bike?

I'm simply flagging up the short falls in modern bike design

I think of my Camino as somewhere between the two, it's a bit like a drop-bar mountain bike, but less upright. I think I'm more over the pedals that a road bike and that enables me to use more quads, also the flared drops allow me to tuck my elbows in and get quite aero on the flat, and the extra width makes it very stable on the technical stuff

I own two bikes that do all of that but have slacker seatube angles :wink:

It might be something that shouldn't or doesn't work on paper but works in practice. Maybe it's just new and unconventional. All that I can say is that it works for me, and according to the owners pages for the other people that have it. It's great going up hills - I took it through the Himalayas last year and had some great times going up the big climbs, and it was amazingly stable and planted coming down

Try it - you might be a convert!

To be clear I'm not writing off the Camino as a rubbish bike,only that it would appeal to a wider cross section of cyclists if the seatube angle were slacker.
FWIW I found the perfect dropbarred tourer/alroad bike some years ago in the Salsa Vaya which for me is the sweet spot but even that could do with a slacker STA than the 72.5degree in the 57cm size I ride.
Last year I bought a Gensis Vagabond frameset and built it up to my spec,it's very similar to the Vaya but with clearances for 2in knobblies and mudguards,though slightly stiffer,the STA in Genesis spec is also 72.5 degrees but it measures up at 72degees 0.5degree bonus,and a great bike for the rough stuff,better still now with Jones loop(PX Geoff copies)handlebar :D
Both bikes get great reviews :wink:
I'm glad you and many other people like the Camino but nothing's perfect for all the people all the time :wink:
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Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby Bonefishblues » 24 Jun 2019, 11:37am

I don't think it would (appeal to a wider x-section) if it were slacker. I think it would appeal to many fewer people - to be clear I'm not getting into its merits, I'm commenting on the current mode.

freeflow
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Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby freeflow » 24 Jun 2019, 1:00pm

I also suffer from the perennial insufficient setback problem. I was riding with a Humpert Ergotec seatpost with 50mm layback which was working well. Unfortunately that bike was stolen a few weeks ago.

I've just ordered a replacement for my current second best bike (£49 plus delivery).

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/erg ... XtEALw_wcB

This seatpost was easily capable of supporting my 110+kg in its furthest back positon with the saddle also in its furthest back position.

Edit. The bike that was stolen was a custom Ti frame with a 71 degree seatpost angle.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 1:30pm

Bonefishblues wrote:I don't think it would (appeal to a wider x-section) if it were slacker. I think it would appeal to many fewer people - to be clear I'm not getting into its merits, I'm commenting on the current mode.

And why should it make any difference if the saddle can be set for a wider cross section of riders?
If fashion is overruling practicality,and IMO that's the nub of it,we're in a dire situation.
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reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby reohn2 » 24 Jun 2019, 1:35pm

freeflow wrote:I also suffer from the perennial insufficient setback problem. I was riding with a Humpert Ergotec seatpost with 50mm layback which was working well. Unfortunately that bike was stolen a few weeks ago.

I've just ordered a replacement for my current second best bike (£49 plus delivery).

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/erg ... XtEALw_wcB

This seatpost was easily capable of supporting my 110+kg in its furthest back positon with the saddle also in its furthest back position.

Edit. The bike that was stolen was a custom Ti frame with a 71 degree seatpost angle.

That seatpost is a very good example of how to overcome the problem,I have one fitted to my Vaya so I can get the saddle clamp central on the rails.
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John_S
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Joined: 16 Sep 2014, 10:34pm

Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby John_S » 24 Jun 2019, 2:31pm

Hi Steviemoo,

Appreciate that you already have lots of advice, including on the frame geometry, about the bikes that you're considering as well as some alternative options.

I've not had time to read those posts in detail yet but just responding to your initial message and whether there are any other options out there at a similar price point there are the following to consider:-

The Cotic Escapade at either £1,199 for their Bronze build or £1,449 for their Silver build:-
https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/escapade#bike
https://off.road.cc/content/news/new-cotic-escapade-gravel-road-bike-is-all-terrain-gorgeous-1436

The Light Blue Robinson LD 105 build at £1,399
https://www.thelightblue.co.uk/Sport/5LB5R150O/Robinson-RD-105
https://road.cc/content/review/174276-light-blue-robinson-rival-1x
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/reviews/road-bikes/the-light-blue-robinson-rd-105

Orro Terra Gravel 105/TRP £1,250
https://www.orrobikes.com/shop/adventure-bikes/terra/54

Whyte Glencoe £1,299
https://whyte.bike/collections/roadplus-adventure/products/glencoe

I'm not really sure exactly what you're intended use is, for example all off road gravel leisure rides, mixed use road and off road use, commuting etc., but for something completely different a flat bar option.
The Bombtrack Arise geared £1,250
http://bombtrack.com/all-bikes-2/
https://www.damianharriscycles.co.uk/prod/tou_0011_nb/bombtrack-arise-geared-touring-2019-bike

Again this totally depends on your road to gravel ratio plus how rough is the gravel that you'll be riding but if you're only doing a smaller percentage of non too technical gravel then with the right tyres I'm sure that the Spa Aubisque could cope with a bit of gravel riding:-
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s21p3867/SPA-CYCLES-Aubisque-105-Triple

One of the Kona Rove or Sutra bikes which if you look around can be under £1,400
https://www.konaworld.com/bikes_road.cfm


Good luck finding the right bike for you!

John

John_S
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Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby John_S » 24 Jun 2019, 2:33pm

Hi again,

Actually my apologies because I've just realised that the bike has to have SRAM Rival 1x and that'll teach me for reading things too quickly.

Sorry!

John

Bonefishblues
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Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby Bonefishblues » 24 Jun 2019, 2:36pm

mnichols wrote:Love my Camino. Love it Love it Love it....I think I'm going to give it a polish now

You are the lady off Bake Off - The Professionals and I claim my £50

PH
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Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby PH » 24 Jun 2019, 2:45pm

What a pity yet another bike question is turned into one about seat post angles, can we maybe have a sticky about them? Then someone, you know who, could link every bike question to it with some thing like "You might want to consider this" <LINK> it would save having to go through the identical opinions again and again and again....

mnichols
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Re: Gravel Bikes Advice Required

Postby mnichols » 24 Jun 2019, 4:20pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
mnichols wrote:Love my Camino. Love it Love it Love it....I think I'm going to give it a polish now

You are the lady off Bake Off - The Professionals and I claim my £50



I've never seen Bake-Off, and I'm not a lady, so I don't get the reference, but as it's 50:50 I've decided to take it as a compliment