** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 11 Jul 2019, 2:07pm

andrec wrote:Brexit had widespread support across the UK which is why Remain lost.


I agree with you. What we don't fully understand is who voted Leave and why. The more you talk about your own feelings and background (without revealing personal details), the more we can all understand. What actually correlates to Leave and what to Remain isn't clear, and why. Age is a factor (but why?) and are there younger people people who voted Leave (yes, there are).

What we can be certain about is the reaction of some Remainers to their defeat. They decided to tell us the result was not valid because they have a low opinion of people who voted Leave


That might be true. Of course, that is going to be fed by the fact that less well-educated people voted Leave (that's a fact, AFAIK). BTW, I don't think anyone is saying the result wasn't valid (thank goodness - no funny ballot papers): the problem is what to do with it. Politically, I would fight against it (legally and peacefully). I would vote for an MP who opposes Brexit. I just don't see how you can give up on a matter of principle while there are still remedies available.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 11 Jul 2019, 2:30pm

horizon wrote:Politically, I would fight against it (legally and peacefully). I would vote for an MP who opposes Brexit. I just don't see how you can give up on a matter of principle while there are still remedies available.

Exactly.

And that is what I am doing as it is what I feel is important for not only the UK but for the wider European context too.

There have been times when frustration about concrete reasons for leaving have been so absent that words can be ill chosen.

Suffice to say that when folk talk about laws and rules being imposed upon us from Brussels it shows, IMV, a swallowing hook line and sinker of the UKIP unfounded tosh.

The EU is mostly about compromise and consensus.From many disparate and independent nation states.
A willingness to compromise for the common good.
Difficult in some areas for sure.
Not perfect, it is true, but better than much else in a tough world.

andrec
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 11 Jul 2019, 2:40pm

horizon wrote:
andrec wrote:Brexit had widespread support across the UK which is why Remain lost.


I agree with you. What we don't fully understand is who voted Leave and why.


And we never will. All poll results are beyond complete explanation. Nobody can ever find out why everyone voted as they did. We don't fully understand who voted Remain and why, and we never will. When poll results are announced people recognise the impossibility of fully understanding them, accept the result as the will of the people and they don't start offering very frank and sometimes less than polite opinions about the voters for the opposing side. The people's vote of 2016 was an exception to this convention, and an unfortunate one. Poll results must be accepted with good grace, not bitterness, anger and contempt. Some Remainers have let themselves down badly in this respect.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 11 Jul 2019, 2:59pm

andrec wrote:Some Remainers have let themselves down badly in this respect.

And the leavers "boo yah sucks" attitude?

Lets face it the country is divided and however it pans out it isn't going to fix itself anytime soon and neither side is blame free.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 11 Jul 2019, 3:09pm

kwackers wrote:
andrec wrote:Some Remainers have let themselves down badly in this respect.

And the leavers "boo yah sucks" attitude?
Lets face it the country is divided and however it pans out it isn't going to fix itself anytime soon and neither side is blame free.

And if the economy does tank there will be a lot of bile directed at leave supporters and rightfully so.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 11 Jul 2019, 3:15pm

Andrec hasn't yet told us which of our laws some foreign government has made.
John

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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jul 2019, 5:37pm

kwackers wrote:
pete75 wrote:"A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension."

When it doesn't affect you idealism is cheap.

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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jul 2019, 5:49pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Andrec hasn't yet told us which of our laws some foreign government has made.

That maybe because he can't.
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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 11 Jul 2019, 8:39pm

reohn2 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Andrec hasn't yet told us which of our laws some foreign government has made.

That maybe because he can't.


No one can .... unless they make it up. Let us call it "the straight banana fallacy"; or "unbending the banana"; or just "bananas" for short.

Cugel

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jul 2019, 9:06pm

Cugel wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Andrec hasn't yet told us which of our laws some foreign government has made.

That maybe because he can't.


No one can .... unless they make it up. Let us call it "the straight banana fallacy"; or "unbending the banana"; or just "bananas" for short.

Cugel

Yes we have no ......... .... https://youtu.be/_hF05ik5TFQ
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windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 12 Jul 2019, 6:50am

horizon wrote:
andrec wrote:Brexit had widespread support across the UK which is why Remain lost.


I agree with you. What we don't fully understand is who voted Leave and why. The more you talk about your own feelings and background (without revealing personal details), the more we can all understand. What actually correlates to Leave and what to Remain isn't clear, and why. Age is a factor (but why?) and are there younger people people who voted Leave (yes, there are).

What we can be certain about is the reaction of some Remainers to their defeat. They decided to tell us the result was not valid because they have a low opinion of people who voted Leave


That might be true. Of course, that is going to be fed by the fact that less well-educated people voted Leave (that's a fact, AFAIK). BTW, I don't think anyone is saying the result wasn't valid (thank goodness - no funny ballot papers): the problem is what to do with it. Politically, I would fight against it (legally and peacefully). I would vote for an MP who opposes Brexit. I just don't see how you can give up on a matter of principle while there are still remedies available.


Leavers are less educated than remainers and that's a fact. You really know that? Or should I say you really believe opinion polls - like the ones that stated that remain was going to win. Facts and experts don't really mix with polictics, Better to look to the conclusions of events or history if you want to take a stab at facts. A democracy should be led by the people via their representitives not by experts who are there to give advice when asked which is optional and not binding like it has been for a long time.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 12 Jul 2019, 6:55am

horizon wrote:
andrec wrote:Brexit had widespread support across the UK which is why Remain lost.


I agree with you. What we don't fully understand is who voted Leave and why. The more you talk about your own feelings and background (without revealing personal details), the more we can all understand. What actually correlates to Leave and what to Remain isn't clear, and why. Age is a factor (but why?) and are there younger people people who voted Leave (yes, there are).

What we can be certain about is the reaction of some Remainers to their defeat. They decided to tell us the result was not valid because they have a low opinion of people who voted Leave


That might be true. Of course, that is going to be fed by the fact that less well-educated people voted Leave (that's a fact, AFAIK). BTW, I don't think anyone is saying the result wasn't valid (thank goodness - no funny ballot papers): the problem is what to do with it. Politically, I would fight against it (legally and peacefully). I would vote for an MP who opposes Brexit. I just don't see how you can give up on a matter of principle while there are still remedies available.


Leavers are less educated than remainers and that's a fact. You really know that? Or should I say you really believe opinion polls - like the ones that stated that remain was going to win. Facts and experts don't really mix with politics, Better to look to the conclusions of events or history if you want to take a stab at facts. A democracy should be led by the people via their representitives not by experts who are there to give advice when asked which is optional and not binding like it has been for a long time.

I think quite a few remainers on here have said the result was not valid, they have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at it to discredit the fact that they lost.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 12 Jul 2019, 7:30am

windmiller wrote:Leavers are less educated than remainers and that's a fact. You really know that?

We can't know exactly who voted what, but the polls are reasonably clear.

Don't be offended though. It goes like this. Leave voters tend to be older. Older people tend to have fewer paper qualifications. There are other factors of course, to do with social class and so on.

[Declaration of Interests: 4 Grade C 'O' Levels]

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 12 Jul 2019, 9:29am

The Theory behind No-Deal Economics -Joseph Schumpeter and his followers. ( never heard of him)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... GTUK_email

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 12 Jul 2019, 9:31am

windmiller wrote:
Leavers are less educated than remainers and that's a fact. You really know that? Or should I say you really believe opinion polls


Actually I was supporting andrec's point that the referendum was a bit of a slap in the face (my words) for the educated, the managerial etc. BTW, that's not polls, that's research. So you'll have to have that out with andrec.

And also BTW, that isn't sneering at people less well "educated": in fact it was saying that a few pompous Remainers hadn't looked past people's lack of exam results to see real people with good hearts and minds.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)