Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

brynpoeth
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby brynpoeth » 14 Jul 2019, 5:05pm

Home of informed comment, expert knowledge and onions, speculation, entertainment, small bearded gents from Norway, curmudgeons and more

I b€t some people from New Milton never go to the forest
I live near the sea but rarely go there

I strongly suspect he is a cyclist like me complaining about TMC Too Many Cyclists :?
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Jul 2019, 5:12pm

Some people undoubtedly know their onions, but that's not important right now.

slowster
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby slowster » 14 Jul 2019, 5:24pm

Bonefishblues wrote:But you've no Idea about that really, have you, just as someone else on thread seems to think that the writer needs help, based on I'm not sure what.

It's just someone having a bit of a general rant in a publication with a circulation of ooh, about 12 or so. Who really cares about their opinion?

CUK, home of intolerance and unsupported opinion - discuss...

I have a very good idea because I am familiar with the area enough to know that it would take a car or a bike to see much of the New Forest from New Milton. It's theoretically possible that the letter writer rides a bike, but somehow I very much doubt it given the content of the letter. Similarly it's possible that the writer regularly does 20 mile walks from his home, but again that is far less likely than his driving into the New Forest.

As for the unsupported opinion, I pointed out that his opinion about cyclists clearly ignored the reality which is that it is car drivers who kill animals in the New Forest (many of whom are local and drive too fast), and it is not unreasonable to draw inferences about the attitude and lifestyle of someone who sees cyclists and kids swinging on trees as the problem, when the evidence shows otherwise. In other words, the fact that he so completely ignores the real problems, is a very strong indicator that he belongs to the group that is the biggest problem.

The ponies and other animals killed and seriously injured by speeding and careless drivers in the New Forest suffer dreadfully according to the reports in the local press, and it is the biggest problem as far as human/animal interaction in the New Forest is concerned.

Mike Sales
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby Mike Sales » 14 Jul 2019, 5:49pm

slowster wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:But you've no Idea about that really, have you, just as someone else on thread seems to think that the writer needs help, based on I'm not sure what.

It's just someone having a bit of a general rant in a publication with a circulation of ooh, about 12 or so. Who really cares about their opinion?

CUK, home of intolerance and unsupported opinion - discuss...

I have a very good idea because I am familiar with the area enough to know that it would take a car or a bike to see much of the New Forest from New Milton. It's theoretically possible that the letter writer rides a bike, but somehow I very much doubt it given the content of the letter. Similarly it's possible that the writer regularly does 20 mile walks from his home, but again that is far less likely than his driving into the New Forest.

As for the unsupported opinion, I pointed out that his opinion about cyclists clearly ignored the reality which is that it is car drivers who kill animals in the New Forest (many of whom are local and drive too fast), and it is not unreasonable to draw inferences about the attitude and lifestyle of someone who sees cyclists and kids swinging on trees as the problem, when the evidence shows otherwise. In other words, the fact that he so completely ignores the real problems, is a very strong indicator that he belongs to the group that is the biggest problem.

The ponies and other animals killed and seriously injured by speeding and careless drivers in the New Forest suffer dreadfully according to the reports in the local press, and it is the biggest problem as far as human/animal interaction in the New Forest is concerned.


Convincing because well supported by local knowledge, and by reasoned inference.

brynpoeth
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby brynpoeth » 14 Jul 2019, 5:50pm

Might still be wrong, mind
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pwa
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby pwa » 14 Jul 2019, 9:18pm

I don't know the New Forest well, but the national parks I do know are a bit too busy to really enjoy sometimes. Perhaps part of the answer to this excessive popularity is getting people to make more of the wonderful countryside that is outside these areas. Some of my favourite countryside is outside National Parks.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Jul 2019, 9:27pm

pwa wrote:I don't know the New Forest well, but the national parks I do know are a bit too busy to really enjoy sometimes. Perhaps part of the answer to this excessive popularity is getting people to make more of the wonderful countryside that is outside these areas. Some of my favourite countryside is outside National Parks.


Even within the national parks, it's trivially easy to get away from the crowds if that's your desire. Early May bank holiday we were atop Scafell in the company of perhaps two other souls; across mickledore several hundred could be seen atop Scafell Pike.

brynpoeth
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby brynpoeth » 14 Jul 2019, 9:29pm

There is a mountain in Scotland 2999 ft high, one doesnae meet many people there :wink:
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Jul 2019, 9:31pm

Mike Sales wrote:
slowster wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:But you've no Idea about that really, have you, just as someone else on thread seems to think that the writer needs help, based on I'm not sure what.

It's just someone having a bit of a general rant in a publication with a circulation of ooh, about 12 or so. Who really cares about their opinion?

CUK, home of intolerance and unsupported opinion - discuss...

I have a very good idea because I am familiar with the area enough to know that it would take a car or a bike to see much of the New Forest from New Milton. It's theoretically possible that the letter writer rides a bike, but somehow I very much doubt it given the content of the letter. Similarly it's possible that the writer regularly does 20 mile walks from his home, but again that is far less likely than his driving into the New Forest.

As for the unsupported opinion, I pointed out that his opinion about cyclists clearly ignored the reality which is that it is car drivers who kill animals in the New Forest (many of whom are local and drive too fast), and it is not unreasonable to draw inferences about the attitude and lifestyle of someone who sees cyclists and kids swinging on trees as the problem, when the evidence shows otherwise. In other words, the fact that he so completely ignores the real problems, is a very strong indicator that he belongs to the group that is the biggest problem.

The ponies and other animals killed and seriously injured by speeding and careless drivers in the New Forest suffer dreadfully according to the reports in the local press, and it is the biggest problem as far as human/animal interaction in the New Forest is concerned.


Convincing because well supported by local knowledge, and by reasoned inference.

Indeed. Excellent reasoning and certainly more than sufficient to state an opinion in unequivocal terms, were one of that bent. They're part of the problem, for certain...

Or not - I don't know, and nor do you, which is why stating opinion as if it were fact is unwise.

I wonder why such agitation about some random person having a minor rant (about things which likely are issues of import to those familiar with the area) which, outrageously is failing to acknowledge all of the issues, especially in something with such an infinitesimally small circulation?

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Jul 2019, 9:44pm

brynpoeth wrote:There is a mountain in Scotland 2999 ft high, one doesnae meet many people there :wink:


Once five of us reached an unpathed mountain top on Mull, to find a lone walker in the shelter of the small summit cairn.

Our cheery "hellos" were met with "didn't expect to see anyone else up here" followed by stony silence.

slowster
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby slowster » 14 Jul 2019, 11:24pm

Firstly, this is an internet forum. The suggestion that I need to apply some kind of rigorous standard of fact checking and investigation before making such judgments about the letter writer is ridiculous. As for stating opinion as if it were fact, I think it was patently clear that I was drawing inferences. (Incidentally, if you are referring to my use of the word 'doubtless', that is not what the word means in the context in which I used it.)

Secondly, the suggestion that I am criticising him for voicing those issues which matter to him, on the grounds that he failed to consider all the issues, i.e. so called 'whataboutery', is wrong. With the exception of littering and the fire hazard of barbeques, the issues that matter to him either have no merit whatsoever (complaining about children leaving a piece of rope used as a swing tied to a tree) and/or show a wilful refusal to face up to the facts (people on bikes are not a problem for the animals in the New Forest, but people driving cars too fast are). Every year the KSI statistics for New Forest animals feature heavily in the local press and are even shown on roadside signposts, and there are repeated pleas throughout the year from the commoners who own the ponies for drivers to slow down and who recount the anguish of seeing one of their animals killed or so seriously injured by a car driver that the animal has to be put down.

Even his comment about feeding the ponies and posing children on them suggests an outsider's lack of awareness of the real issues. The main reasons why such behaviour is a problem is because it encourages the ponies to stay close to humans and consequently close to the roads, and because they are semi-wild, unpredictable and in some cases bad tempered - I've known people who have ended up in hospital after being kicked by a pony. The letter writer's comment about 'suburban park' makes me strongly suspect that his concern is instead that the 'special character' of the Forest and its animals is being spoiled by visitors. This attitude is not that unusual - there are quite a few vocal people in the area and the odd campaign group that think that the Forest should be managed in a certain way and that other people and visitors should only be allowed providing they behave and use the Forest in a certain way. Unsurprisingly, these inviduals and groups favour their own particular activities and preferences over everyone else's.

Lastly, I'm not agitated, but I do think it's important that such flawed statements do not go unchallenged. I felt it was especially important to counter the comment about cyclists "cycling like maniacs through the New Forest without a care for man or beast" by highlighting the numbers of ponies and other animals killed by car drivers. I would not post a reply on the newspaper's website, but since this thread has been started and includes a link to the letter, I decided that it would be appropriate to respond. It's a bit like Brexit: you either stand by and watch people make statements which are at best untrue and at worst outright lies, or you can decide that facts and the truth really do matter and seek to debunk the untruths and lies.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby Bonefishblues » 14 Jul 2019, 11:48pm

Your conclusions were clear, as was your language. You don't know.

Those issues matter sufficiently to him to write about them, and also to you to now issue a detailed rebuttal of the points he makes, at much greater length than his.

If you want to challenge him, write to the New Forest Advertiser, or whatever it is, and likely both of its readers will see it.

Sometimes we should consider just letting it wash over us - on all levels :D
Last edited by Bonefishblues on 15 Jul 2019, 7:13am, edited 1 time in total.

slowster
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby slowster » 15 Jul 2019, 12:04am

You are quite willing to state as fact how I feel about this subject, e.g. "you don't like your faux certainty being challenged on an internet forum, that much is clear". But you don't really know how I feel, do you? I guess it's just faux certainty.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby Bonefishblues » 15 Jul 2019, 7:10am

Sometimes we should consider just letting it wash over us - on all levels :D

I shall take my own advice and let others carry on this important debate :wink:

ETA
...but I have removed the offending statement, as you're absolutely right, I only suspected you felt thus, based on my interpretation what you had written and the way it was expressed.

ambodach
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Re: Letters: Help! The New Forest is becoming a suburban park

Postby ambodach » 15 Jul 2019, 9:52am

“ Overtourism “ is becoming a problem in lots of places. I am not familiar with the New Forest since I live several hundred miles away but I can sympathise with complaints of just too many people and not all are considerate of local populations. There is a mindset I have come across which says “ I am a tourist and I will do whatever I want regardless of manners or consideration for others”. I have had them come into my private garage and stand around watching me make lead weights for fishing because the door was not quite shut and they just walked in. Very dangerous with molten lead. This type of behaviour is not uncommon.