Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

[Oldjohnw]

I do a lot of urban riding (Deliveroo) I regularly go through red lights, most often when turning left when I can see no one else is doing so, or on otherwise empty roads, or on some junctions I'll bypass them by hopping onto the pavement.

Unacceptable and exactly the sort of behaviour that makes almost all motorists hate us.

But why?
Go to any of the European countries where cycling is popular and it's pretty much standard behaviour (Where the planners haven't already allowed for it) yet there isn't the same sort of hate from motorists. So just what do you think it's about?
If you go to Amsterdam and stop at a pedestrian crossing red light when there's no pedestrians the bikes behind are likely to run straight into you...

A point I wonder if you have missed: this is not Amsterdam:-)

[poetd]

A660 - A65 - plenty of room if they hadn't been taking up the entire road.
There was LESS room later on when passing the single file pack, but we still managed.
FYI - my girlfriend was driving that day, Corsa - and she won't go near a cyclist unless there's at least 6 foot passing space.

[mattheus]

Noone should be surprised that this has all been said before. It got to 16 pages last time. People could just copy-n-paste from there to save time? viewtopic.php?f=7&t=124124#p1260667

Anyway, I thought this was a good post from the 1st page:

From my observations around 50% of car drivers run red lights but as soon as the one at the front stops, the others have to wait behind, the difference with people on bikes is that they can filter to the front and continue running the red light after the drivers have had to stop. We could also list a huge list of things drivers do wrong, some drivers anyway.

[PH]

Unacceptable and exactly the sort of behaviour that makes almost all motorists hate us.

But why?
Go to any of the European countries where cycling is popular and it's pretty much standard behaviour (Where the planners haven't already allowed for it) yet there isn't the same sort of hate from motorists. So just what do you think it's about?
If you go to Amsterdam and stop at a pedestrian crossing red light when there's no pedestrians the bikes behind are likely to run straight into you...

A point I wonder if you have missed: this is not Amsterdam:-)

No - that was the point I was making, not one I missed.
The difference is in the attitude of the motorists, not that of the cyclists - that's very much the point.

[Spinners]

You've missed the question - Why do motorists hate people on bikes in the UK but not in other countries for the same behaviour?

I honestly don't know. I've ridden in France and Spain and undoubtedly felt safer and with far less 'beeping'

Specifically, on a cyclist turning left when the traffic lights are on red - are their laws different perhaps?

[mattheus]

Driver are used to plenty of law-breaking around them - speeding uppermost, maybe mobile phones next? (then a raft of minor irritants - bad/absent indicating, lane indiscipline, dodgy exhausts/tyres etc ... )

Do we find that drivers hate these law-breakers amongst them?

[Spinners]

FYI - my girlfriend was driving that day, Corsa

My wife's driving is pretty coarse too

Edit: spelling, doh!

[poetd]

FYI - my girlfriend was driving that day, Corsa

My wife's driving is pretty course too

Not bad.
Though I'm sure there's better to be had out of playing on the Italian translation....

[Wanlock Dod]

In all of the years that I have been driving never once has it been suggested that I should take responsibility for the carelessness or law breaking of other motorists, nor that motorists collectively need to sort their act out regardless of how many people are killed by them. I have encountered plenty of excuses and even encouragement for breaking speed limits, illegal or irresponsible parking, and a host of other offences.

Can anybody enlighten me as to what it is about cyclists that requires such different treatment?

[kwackers]

Can anybody enlighten me as to what it is about cyclists that requires such different treatment?

I understand why motorists latch onto such things as justification for their actions.

What I find bizarre is that some cyclists believe it too!

[Tangled Metal]

A660 - A65 - plenty of room if they hadn't been taking up the entire road.
There was LESS room later on when passing the single file pack, but we still managed.
FYI - my girlfriend was driving that day, Corsa - and she won't go near a cyclist unless there's at least 6 foot passing space.

Aah! The main road not near Malham which is narrow lanes. Turn off at Gargrave to get to Malham (past a very good tandem shop). I misunderstood, thought you meant the roads near Malham.

The A65 from Skipton to Gargrave is wider but twisting and single file is passable but tbh I've still taken my time behind cyclists on there. The road isn't very wide and it's winding. At some sections it's got rises and hills to it. Not a good road for overtaking anything but as I said just now, passable with care if the cyclists are single file preferably in series of small groups.

However, I would like to point out that I don't think it is the responsibility of any road user to make it easier for others to overtake them. It is their responsibility to drive /ride safely and for road users to overtake safely if possible. Cyclists do not have to pull in or ride in any particular formation. Indeed a bunch of boy scouts could march up and down that road in parade style and all motorists behind them would have to sit back until safe to pass. BTW I've been a scout doing that and chatted to the copper walking next to us. It was him who told us that.

[poetd]

However, I would like to point out that I don't think it is the responsibility of any road user to make it easier for others to overtake them. It is their responsibility to drive /ride safely and for road users to overtake safely if possible. Cyclists do not have to pull in or ride in any particular formation.

I'm not saying they do have to move.
I'm just offering up the possiblity that a bit of courtesy to other road users goes a long way to affecting perceptions.

[mjr]

A660 - A65 - plenty of room if they hadn't been taking up the entire road.
There was LESS room later on when passing the single file pack, but we still managed.
FYI - my girlfriend was driving that day, Corsa - and she won't go near a cyclist unless there's at least 6 foot passing space.

[...] The A65 from Skipton to Gargrave is wider but twisting and single file is passable [...]

I don't know those roads (I may have driven them once but not recently), but from satellite images, I'm surprised if any of it has lanes of 5.65m+, which is what you need to pass a single file of cyclists safely despite oncoming traffic (0.75m cyclist to edge minimum, 1.2m dynamic envelope of cyclist, 1.5m recommended car-cycle clearance, 2.2m typical car width).

[Tangled Metal]

You're right there but since when do motorists ever apply that much space? Real world there is passing space but you're likely to be closer than 1.5m gap.

Personally I hate that road driving it in the car. Head eastwards in the morning you're often driving into sunrise. Driving westwards in the evening you're often driving into the sunset. That makes it dangerous in places.

Plus it's narrow in many places. Some you can only just get cars passing each other going the opposite direction. I'm thinking of the bit over the canal before the right turn going up the hill, iirc before you get to the second settle turn off roundabout when coming from the west. Could be wrong as I don't know it as well as I used to.

However I personally have rarely met cyclists on that road. Why ride it when there's some much nicer roads cross country? It's a cyclist's death trap with the way motorists drive it.

[mattheus]

However, I would like to point out that I don't think it is the responsibility of any road user to make it easier for others to overtake them. It is their responsibility to drive /ride safely and for road users to overtake safely if possible. Cyclists do not have to pull in or ride in any particular formation.

I'm not saying they do have to move.
I'm just offering up the possiblity that a bit of courtesy to other road users goes a long way to affecting perceptions.

To complete the picture ...
I rode roughly 50 miles on Sunday as a threesome; we singled out on quite a few occasions (the route chosen and the traffic levels meant it wasn't needed very often). Not once did any driver thank us.

This is situation-as-normal.