Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

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thelawnet
Posts: 2301
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby thelawnet » 1 Aug 2019, 8:44pm

Well the CAS finally released some honest detail, as opposed to the lies and obfuscation from the Semenya camp:

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_ ... A_IAAF.pdf

The points:

* Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes
* Caster Semenya has testicles
* Caster Semenya's testicles produce normal male levels of testosterone
* Caster Semenya's body responds to testosterone normally
* Caster Semenya's body cannot convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) (5-ARD)

There is some medical disagreement as to whether or not

(a) Caster Semenya is merely a mediocre male (the lack of DHT is irrelevant to sporting performance)
or
(b) Caster Semenya's lack of DHT is a material disadvantage compared to males who produce DHT

However in either case, Caster Semenya's testes create a big advantage compared to females with ovaries.

The clear effect of lacking DHT is malformed external genitals.

Athletes with 46 XY DSD are “gonadally male”, meaning they have functioning
testes that produce sperm and circulating testosterone levels within the normal
male range. The only physical/biological differences between androgensensitive 46 XY DSD athletes and non-DSD male athletes are that their testes
are not descended and their external genitalia may be undervirilised. Such
individuals may have a female legal sex and/or gender identity; however this
does not affect athletic performance. Therefore if their androgen receptors
iunction properly, they will have exactly the same performance advantages over
female athletes as non-DSD males athletes have. O


Separately studies suggest that 5-ARD results in a male gender identity.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... andr.12108

Fifteen patients were reared as females while 14 were reared as males. 12 of the 15 reared as females had gender dysphoria and underwent gender reassignment.


I.e. despite being raised female, most asserted themselves as male, while all raised as male continued to be male.

So the evidence suggests that Caster Semenya has a male intersex condition, not a female intersex condition. However, Caster Semenya asserts a female gender identity. Certain individuals with 5ARD have had gonadectomies as children, but Caster Semenya is not such an individual.

Mike_Ayling
Posts: 196
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 3:02am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby Mike_Ayling » 3 Aug 2019, 2:11am

[quote="thelawnet"
So the evidence suggests that Caster Semenya has a male intersex condition, not a female intersex condition. However, Caster Semenya asserts a female gender identity. Certain individuals with 5ARD have had gonadectomies as children, but Caster Semenya is not such an individual.[/quote]

So would it help if she volunteered to be "neutered"?

Mike

thelawnet
Posts: 2301
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby thelawnet » 3 Aug 2019, 4:21am

Mike_Ayling wrote:
thelawnet wrote:So the evidence suggests that Caster Semenya has a male intersex condition, not a female intersex condition. However, Caster Semenya asserts a female gender identity. Certain individuals with 5ARD have had gonadectomies as children, but Caster Semenya is not such an individual.


So would it help if she volunteered to be "neutered"?

Mike


Well that's the IAAF's idea in a way, in that they have mandated taking testosterone-suppressants, which would have the same effect.

But it's a wrong solution in that if you've gone through male puberty, as Caster Semenya has, then you have a male body shape, skeleton, etc., and that's irreversible.

Anyway, that wasn't my point (which might not have been clear) - those individuals with 5ARD who were subject to gonadectomies as children are likely to assert a female gender identity (because they have no testosterone), but otherwise this is clearly a male condition.

As a male Caster Semenya has no place in female sport at all.

mercalia
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Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 14 Feb 2020, 7:02pm

Not about athletes but rather trans people

A story caught my eye to day

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-51501202

then this one which didnt go to well for the lady in question

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/02/i-stand-with-kate-scottow/

quite shocked what you can get "done for" these days

pwa
Posts: 11619
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 3:48pm

mercalia wrote:Not about athletes but rather trans people

A story caught my eye to day

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-51501202

then this one which didnt go to well for the lady in question

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/02/i-stand-with-kate-scottow/

quite shocked what you can get "done for" these days


We have to distinguish between hateful attacks on folk who just want to live their lives in their own way, and rational debate about to what degree a person can change their gender.

I know someone who began life as male and now identifies as female and it causes me no stress, so I can't see why other folk can't just accept them the way they want to be and leave them in peace. Each to his or her own.

But from a scientific standpoint if you are born with male chromosomes there is, as far as I am aware, no way of changing that. You can change the external appearance and mannerisms, and the way you feel, but your biology will remain male at a basic level. Pointing that out is simply pointing out a truth, but the question then arises as to why you choose to point that out. The context for pointing that out. If it is in the context of a scientific discussion, fine, but if you point that out to hurt someone's feelings it will be "hate speech". Speech designed to hurt.

mercalia
Posts: 12734
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 15 Feb 2020, 4:21pm

pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:Not about athletes but rather trans people

A story caught my eye to day

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-51501202

then this one which didnt go to well for the lady in question

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/02/i-stand-with-kate-scottow/

quite shocked what you can get "done for" these days


We have to distinguish between hateful attacks on folk who just want to live their lives in their own way, and rational debate about to what degree a person can change their gender.

I know someone who began life as male and now identifies as female and it causes me no stress, so I can't see why other folk can't just accept them the way they want to be and leave them in peace. Each to his or her own.

But from a scientific standpoint if you are born with male chromosomes there is, as far as I am aware, no way of changing that. You can change the external appearance and mannerisms, and the way you feel, but your biology will remain male at a basic level. Pointing that out is simply pointing out a truth, but the question then arises as to why you choose to point that out. The context for pointing that out. If it is in the context of a scientific discussion, fine, but if you point that out to hurt someone's feelings it will be "hate speech". Speech designed to hurt.


people say nasty things all the time but are not put on a police register or prosecuted for it - all the comments about Boris for one.

pwa
Posts: 11619
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2020, 4:48pm

mercalia wrote:
people say nasty things all the time but are not put on a police register or prosecuted for it - all the comments about Boris for one.


But Boris is a person who has put himself in a public position. The trans person that I know is quiet and minds her own business and for her to have her life choices attacked for no good reason is spiteful. It amounts to bullying. Just like in a playground when the kid who is a bit different gets picked on by the crowd. The rest of us have to stand up for them.

I'm not sure about the individuals who were arrested, and whether they should have been. I'd have to see all their comments in the context of the conversations they were involved in. But I won't put up with bullying where I see it.

mercalia
Posts: 12734
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 15 Feb 2020, 5:01pm

pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:
people say nasty things all the time but are not put on a police register or prosecuted for it - all the comments about Boris for one.


But Boris is a person who has put himself in a public position. The trans person that I know is quiet and minds her own business and for her to have her life choices attacked for no good reason is spiteful. It amounts to bullying. Just like in a playground when the kid who is a bit different gets picked on by the crowd. The rest of us have to stand up for them.

I'm not sure about the individuals who were arrested, and whether they should have been. I'd have to see all their comments in the context of the conversations they were involved in. But I won't put up with bullying where I see it.


the trans in the 2nd article where the real lady ended up with a criminal record apparantly resorts to the courts all the time - if you do a google for Stephanie Hayden and is a well known activisit. so they ( I will use the non binary pronoun for that person) are/is in the public eye. Your friend isnt.

landsurfer
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby landsurfer » 15 Feb 2020, 5:02pm

As previously posted;


"And now the freedom to say that some Transgender people are cheats in sport and to discuss the issue of men and women pretending to be a different gender can be upheld in law ?

From the Telegraph today; (Actually yesterday).

"Police compared to Stasi and Gestapo by judge as he rules they interfered in freedom of speech by investigating 'non crime' trans tweet"

"Holding a copy of George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, he added: "I'm going to continue tweeting, I'm going to continue campaigning and I'm going to continue standing with women in order to secure their sex-based rights.

"This judgment today has told us that we can do that and, if the police come knocking, say: 'Miller v Humberside Police, bugger off!"'

Is 0.02% of the population really causing this amount of angst and anger .... no! can't be ...... Unless that 0.02% seek to force their agenda on to the rest of society ....

However i suspect it's not the 0.02% of the population that are trying to force anything ... possibly they just want to exist in their own space .... it will be militant political "persons" that are "horrified" and "angry" at the supposed treatment of trans people that will be causing the greatest noise.

My son lived as "Kate" for 2 years .. Invisible within the Gay community.
Visible to others when having lunch with his dad in the centre of Nottingham, but no negative comments where ever forthcoming even in Wetherspoons on a Friday evening ... his greatest fear was he would be used as a totem by those outside the Gay community ...
And it came to pass ....
He was approached by Nottingham Uni SU to be their "Face of Trans" .... HE RAN A MILE ... moved to Manchester for 8 months and came home as John ....

The approach by Notts Uni was not the reason for his return to John ... but it was a catalyst...
The Road Goes On Forever

carpetcleaner
Posts: 357
Joined: 14 Nov 2019, 1:25pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby carpetcleaner » 15 Feb 2020, 5:43pm

It's a complex matter. But I think we can assume that transgender people competing in women's events and the consequent complaints from some other competitors is not a women's rights issue.

That's because women's rights group have been silent, just as they were about recent events in Rochdale and Rotherham, another controversy involving a relatively small number of aggrieved women.

landsurfer
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby landsurfer » 15 Feb 2020, 7:36pm

carpetcleaner wrote:It's a complex matter. But I think we can assume that transgender people competing in women's events and the consequent complaints from some other competitors is not a women's rights issue.

That's because women's rights group have been silent, just as they were about recent events in Rochdale and Rotherham, another controversy involving a relatively small number of aggrieved women.


Women's Rights groups are terrified of the abuse and threats they get from the Trans lobby .... all the Women's Rights advances of the last 100 yers are being undermined and lost to men dressed up as women ... sorry their "Supporters" .. if you've been abused by a violent man how does being abused by a man in a dress make any difference !!.. read the posts on here please ...
The Road Goes On Forever

mercalia
Posts: 12734
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 15 Feb 2020, 8:07pm

landsurfer wrote:
carpetcleaner wrote:It's a complex matter. But I think we can assume that transgender people competing in women's events and the consequent complaints from some other competitors is not a women's rights issue.

That's because women's rights group have been silent, just as they were about recent events in Rochdale and Rotherham, another controversy involving a relatively small number of aggrieved women.


Women's Rights groups are terrified of the abuse and threats they get from the Trans lobby .... all the Women's Rights advances of the last 100 yers are being undermined and lost to men dressed up as women ... sorry their "Supporters" .. if you've been abused by a violent man how does being abused by a man in a dress make any difference !!.. read the posts on here please ...


I was reading about attacks on so called Mumsnet by certain trans women

The guide lines the police use to record a hate crime ( for transgenders)

The guidelines define a hate incident as "any non-crime incident which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender".

The dangerous words are perceived and any other person? by that idea all the remarks on Boris are surly hate crimes as I bet he perceives them that way and even if not I bet cummings would or some loyal to him & therefore the police should intervene and take lots of names on their register

irc
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Location: glasgow

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby irc » 15 Feb 2020, 8:52pm

mercalia wrote:The dangerous words are perceived and any other person? by that idea all the remarks on Boris are surly hate crimes as I bet he perceives them that way and even if not I bet cummings would or some loyal to him & therefore the police should intervene and take lots of names on their register


Nothing new. The MacPherson Enquiry defined a racist incident as

A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'


https://www.gov.scot/publications/racis ... /pages/25/

No actual evidence of racist intent needed. If anyone claims anything is a racist incident then by that definition it is.

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby mercalia » 15 Feb 2020, 9:10pm

irc wrote:
mercalia wrote:The dangerous words are perceived and any other person? by that idea all the remarks on Boris are surly hate crimes as I bet he perceives them that way and even if not I bet cummings would or some loyal to him & therefore the police should intervene and take lots of names on their register


Nothing new. The MacPherson Enquiry defined a racist incident as

A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'


https://www.gov.scot/publications/racis ... /pages/25/

No actual evidence of racist intent needed. If anyone claims anything is a racist incident then by that definition it is.


I was thinking of that and a load of nonsense it is too? Makes me despair of these so called clever people. It has figured very much in the antisemtic claims against Labour?

In the transgender case it is going to the supreme court so maybe the police guidelines wlll be overturned and with it these silly ideas?

carpetcleaner
Posts: 357
Joined: 14 Nov 2019, 1:25pm

Re: Transgender athletes (and related stuff)

Postby carpetcleaner » 15 Feb 2020, 9:34pm

irc wrote:
mercalia wrote:The dangerous words are perceived and any other person? by that idea all the remarks on Boris are surly hate crimes as I bet he perceives them that way and even if not I bet cummings would or some loyal to him & therefore the police should intervene and take lots of names on their register


Nothing new. The MacPherson Enquiry defined a racist incident as

A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'


https://www.gov.scot/publications/racis ... /pages/25/

No actual evidence of racist intent needed. If anyone claims anything is a racist incident then by that definition it is.


Apparently the same applies to being offensive. It is amusing to turn this opinion back on the people who propound it by claiming that you find it offensive, therefore it is offensive and they are being offensive. They always deny this, but never offer a reason why they are exempt from the rule they've just told everyone else about.