E cars and the change to the urban landscape

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Oldjohnw
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Oldjohnw » 5 Aug 2019, 2:00pm

And how much does a Tesla cost?
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kwackers
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 5 Aug 2019, 2:39pm

Oldjohnw wrote:And how much does a Tesla cost?

They're free in lucky bags.

Currently EV's are in the early adopter stage and priced appropriately but that's changing fast.
Some folk are predicting price parity by 2025 but I think it's going to happen quicker than that.

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Mick F
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Mick F » 5 Aug 2019, 3:20pm

kwackers wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:And how much does a Tesla cost?

They're free in lucky bags.
Currently EV's are in the early adopter stage and priced appropriately but that's changing fast.
Some folk are predicting price parity by 2025 but I think it's going to happen quicker than that.
Even price parity won't do it.
There has to be an incentive to get rid of polluting diesels and replacing them with EVs for one thing, let alone the petrol cars.

Then, you need to convince folk that an EV is the better choice for an everyday car for the millions of folk who run £500 cars as a matter of normality. I know many people who balk at spending as much as a grand for a car.

Maybe ban the sale of brand new ICE cars as of Jan 1st one year soon. Stop the production dead is probably the only way to switch over the EVs.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 5 Aug 2019, 3:55pm

Mick F wrote:Even price parity won't do it.
There has to be an incentive to get rid of polluting diesels and replacing them with EVs for one thing, let alone the petrol cars.

Then, you need to convince folk that an EV is the better choice for an everyday car for the millions of folk who run £500 cars as a matter of normality. I know many people who balk at spending as much as a grand for a car.

Maybe ban the sale of brand new ICE cars as of Jan 1st one year soon. Stop the production dead is probably the only way to switch over the EVs.

Ignoring second hand cars for a moment.

Why do people buy new diesel? Because they think they're cheap to run, they even pay a premium on the car which will take years to pay back...
What's cheaper to run than a diesel and by a lot? An EV.
How long does the average new purchaser of a car hang on to it? 3-5 years.

That's how EV get into the market. People buy them new. Throw in zero rate tax, lack of congestion charging and currently underused parking on some prime sites and the only thing to overcome is peoples inertia - which once they see their mates driving around for pennies will happen.

Back to second hand.
You can only buy what the folk buying new originally bought. If folk buy EV's then your next car will be an EV.

pwa
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby pwa » 5 Aug 2019, 4:24pm

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:I think this is the crucial thing for people like me. I don't buy new cars, I wait for the car I need to become available cheaply but still with few miles on the clock. And sub £10k is where I am. As are many people. So we wait for sensible electric cars to come down in price to a point where we can say "You know what, that second smaller car of ours is really only for a shortish commute and local errands like taking granny to the surgery. It could just as well be a battery electric car, and it is within budget".

Here's just the thing for you.
30,000 miles so at least 70,000 left in it (2013 so battery is still under warranty - 96 months / 100,000 miles)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201904076725805

Yep. I don't change cars often and don't need one right now, but I am very close to admitting that you have found something that ticks the boxes, and for our own usage it could be charged very easily in our own drive with no need to think about longer journeys. Our larger ICE car could cover that role when needed.

reohn2
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby reohn2 » 5 Aug 2019, 4:36pm

The EV hasn't yet reached full maturity,but it's approaching fast and IMO at some point the £500cars MickF's talking about will either die or they be priced off the roads by not being allowed in certain areas,similarly so diesel taxis.If we've any sense as a society most if not all cars won't be allowed in towns and cities,and the sooner the better IMO.Such places are far better served by public transport.
There's a learning curve for all of society driver,pedestrians equestrians,cyclists,etc where EV's are concerned and we're only just at the beginning in the UK mainly because we drag our feet where anything better is concerned IMO that's because we as a society know the cost of everything with little consideration as to the value,other countries are pushing forward and realising the advantages of a quieter,pollution free and much less stressful local environment.
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Mick F
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Mick F » 5 Aug 2019, 4:56pm

Nothing is approaching fast, not even EVs.
Buying a secondhand ICE car for £500 will continue for a tens of years yet.

Maybe in cities things might change less slow. Certainly not out here in the sticks. Don't single out Cornwall either! There are millions of us not living in a city, and we folk need cars, and we need them cheap. We're comfortably off 60+ and can afford a ten grand car though.

I would perhaps change to an EV if the right deal came along, but the convenience of petrol outweighs any environmental desires so we would need a decent financial incentive. We're the same as just about everyone hereabouts. We saw an EV a week or two ago, and not seen one since.
Mick F. Cornwall

softlips
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby softlips » 5 Aug 2019, 5:00pm

kwackers wrote:
Mick F wrote:Even price parity won't do it.
There has to be an incentive to get rid of polluting diesels and replacing them with EVs for one thing, let alone the petrol cars.

Then, you need to convince folk that an EV is the better choice for an everyday car for the millions of folk who run £500 cars as a matter of normality. I know many people who balk at spending as much as a grand for a car.

Maybe ban the sale of brand new ICE cars as of Jan 1st one year soon. Stop the production dead is probably the only way to switch over the EVs.

Ignoring second hand cars for a moment.

Why do people buy new diesel? Because they think they're cheap to run, they even pay a premium on the car which will take years to pay back...
What's cheaper to run than a diesel and by a lot? An EV.
How long does the average new purchaser of a car hang on to it? 3-5 years.

That's how EV get into the market. People buy them new. Throw in zero rate tax, lack of congestion charging and currently underused parking on some prime sites and the only thing to overcome is peoples inertia - which once they see their mates driving around for pennies will happen.

Back to second hand.
You can only buy what the folk buying new originally bought. If folk buy EV's then your next car will be an EV.


Agree entirely and ICE cars will be priced off the road. Look at all the cities and towns planning pollution charges.

reohn2
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby reohn2 » 5 Aug 2019, 5:02pm

Mick F wrote:Nothing is approaching fast, not even EVs.
Buying a secondhand ICE car for £500 will continue for a tens of years yet.

Maybe in cities things might change less slow. Certainly not out here in the sticks. Don't single out Cornwall either! There are millions of us not living in a city, and we folk need cars, and we need them cheap. We're comfortably off 60+ and can afford a ten grand car though.

I would perhaps change to an EV if the right deal came along, but the convenience of petrol outweighs any environmental desires so we would need a decent financial incentive. We're the same as just about everyone hereabouts. We saw an EV a week or two ago, and not seen one since.

We have to think across all of UK society,for the good of that society,if we don't we're sunk,TBH in the past ten years I've witnessed a sinking unprecedented.
Yes in the sticks things won't change appreciably,but that's not where the majority of people live and work,so for the good of the majority's health which is already suffering as a result of p*** poor government and the inability to progress to a cleaner environment.
Last edited by reohn2 on 5 Aug 2019, 5:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby reohn2 » 5 Aug 2019, 5:06pm

softlips wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Mick F wrote:Even price parity won't do it.
There has to be an incentive to get rid of polluting diesels and replacing them with EVs for one thing, let alone the petrol cars.

Then, you need to convince folk that an EV is the better choice for an everyday car for the millions of folk who run £500 cars as a matter of normality. I know many people who balk at spending as much as a grand for a car.

Maybe ban the sale of brand new ICE cars as of Jan 1st one year soon. Stop the production dead is probably the only way to switch over the EVs.

Ignoring second hand cars for a moment.

Why do people buy new diesel? Because they think they're cheap to run, they even pay a premium on the car which will take years to pay back...
What's cheaper to run than a diesel and by a lot? An EV.
How long does the average new purchaser of a car hang on to it? 3-5 years.

That's how EV get into the market. People buy them new. Throw in zero rate tax, lack of congestion charging and currently underused parking on some prime sites and the only thing to overcome is peoples inertia - which once they see their mates driving around for pennies will happen.

Back to second hand.
You can only buy what the folk buying new originally bought. If folk buy EV's then your next car will be an EV.


Agree entirely and ICE cars will be priced off the road. Look at all the cities and towns planning pollution charges.

IMHO Pollution charges,unless draconian,won't do it on their own.The whole transport system needs rethinking instead of keep tinkering around the edges,with get out clauses for them that can afford it
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Cunobelin
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Cunobelin » 5 Aug 2019, 5:56pm

kwackers wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Because the systems are different?
I will top up my car on the way home tonight. It is on my way home and will take 2 or three minutes, however, if I nip to a public charger with an electric car that maybe 5 or not 6 hours

It depends on the power output of the chargers. and even with the highest output is over an hour for a top-up

What exactly is a "top up"?

Watch folk fill up at the petrol station and they typically put in £5-£20 worth of fuel.
I'd consider that "topping up".

If you're just "topping up" your EV then 5 or 10 mins is probably more than enough. Personally I'd nip to the supermarket and pick up some shopping and top up there, or more likely simply charge it at work.
Obviously the argument at the moment is "I live and work at x and there are no chargers" and that's fair enough, but chargers are easy to fit and as demand rises they'll start to appear.

In the meantime obviously not every one will be able to have an EV. If you don't live or work anywhere you can charge and there are no local fast chargers then they're not for you - yet.


An hour's charging gets you 70 odd miles, so I doubt a 5 - 10 minute top-up (even on one of the faster chargers) would get you more than 10 miles, 15 miles in the best of conditions, and an overnight charge at home

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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 5 Aug 2019, 6:46pm

Cunobelin wrote:An hour's charging gets you 70 odd miles, so I doubt a 5 - 10 minute top-up (even on one of the faster chargers) would get you more than 10 miles, 15 miles in the best of conditions, and an overnight charge at home

Don't know where you got those numbers from.

Current generation EV, i.e. Kia Kona.
80% charge in 54 mins, 258 mile range so that's 258 * 0.8 / 54 * 10 = 38 miles.

And that's no where near the fastest charger although I'm assuming the Kia doesn't support the fastest version.
Stopping at a motorway services (probably the only time I'd need a fast charger) usually costs me about half an hour by the time I've sat down, had a drink and done a bit of people watching so even with a Kona on current DC fast chargers I'd have added over 100 miles.
But probably more important, every time I leave home I'll start with a full tank. ;)

And like I said that's the current level of tech.

brynpoeth
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Aug 2019, 6:58pm

Oh no, makes driving even more attractive :?
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Mick F
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Mick F » 5 Aug 2019, 8:13pm

Sorry, but EVs won't get off the ground for the vast majority of drivers for years and years and years and years and years and years and years .............................

.............. unless there's incentives, and good incentives at that, and MPG doesn't even come into the argument.

Are we just discussing UK?
If not, you aren't even touching the issue in the slightest.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 5 Aug 2019, 8:36pm

Mick F wrote:Sorry, but EVs won't get off the ground for the vast majority of drivers for years and years and years and years and years and years and years .............................

.............. unless there's incentives, and good incentives at that, and MPG doesn't even come into the argument.

Are we just discussing UK?
If not, you aren't even touching the issue in the slightest.

The vast majority of drivers - i.e. those purchasing new cars will be perfectly happy with EV's.

In a few years EV's will be cheaper, charge times will be faster and max distance will be higher.
IC cars will become more expensive because less folk will be making them and they're more complex, fuel will be harder to find.
Seriously - who in their right mind would buy an IC car if they didn't need one?

The Chinese are buying into EV and pumping cash into their development like there's no tomorrow. There are many dozens of models to choose from and over a million cars already on Chinese roads.
Why does that matter? The Chinese will be looking to other markets to sell their EV's into and make no mistake not only is their stuff good but it's priced to sell.
Expect an influx of Chinese EV's over the next few years alongside the other south east Asian cars.

Further to charge times, I was just looking at the latest Tesla chargers. The high end chargers add mileage at the rate of 1000 miles per hour.
That's 100 miles in 6 minutes and where Tesla go the rest follow pretty close behind.