E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 7621
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby al_yrpal » 5 Aug 2019, 10:09pm

Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9425
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Cunobelin » 6 Aug 2019, 6:41am

kwackers wrote:
Mick F wrote:Even price parity won't do it.
There has to be an incentive to get rid of polluting diesels and replacing them with EVs for one thing, let alone the petrol cars.

Then, you need to convince folk that an EV is the better choice for an everyday car for the millions of folk who run £500 cars as a matter of normality. I know many people who balk at spending as much as a grand for a car.

Maybe ban the sale of brand new ICE cars as of Jan 1st one year soon. Stop the production dead is probably the only way to switch over the EVs.

Ignoring second hand cars for a moment.

Why do people buy new diesel? Because they think they're cheap to run, they even pay a premium on the car which will take years to pay back...
What's cheaper to run than a diesel and by a lot? An EV.
How long does the average new purchaser of a car hang on to it? 3-5 years.

That's how EV get into the market. People buy them new. Throw in zero rate tax, lack of congestion charging and currently underused parking on some prime sites and the only thing to overcome is peoples inertia - which once they see their mates driving around for pennies will happen.

Back to second hand.
You can only buy what the folk buying new originally bought. If folk buy EV's then your next car will be an EV.

Cheaper to run?

I wanted a commuting vehicle and looked at the Renault Twizy, as I did not "need" a car.

However, when I looked into the running costs, the battery "hire" was more expensive than the fuel costs for a small "City Car"

Then because of the additional weight add things like additional tyre wear, brake wear etc and the running costs rise.

In the end, the Twizy priced itself off my list

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9425
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Cunobelin » 6 Aug 2019, 6:48am

The charging times I quoted were for the most "popular" electric car.

The second point is the availability of chargers. Locally we have none of the "super" chargers, and you have to carry some 4 different cable sets to use the chargers available locally

There are also limitations with some cars as to the power input they can utilise



.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 46046
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Mick F » 6 Aug 2019, 8:11am

No comment from me either because I refuse to disable my adblocker.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
Posts: 13379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 6 Aug 2019, 9:37am

Mick F wrote:
No comment from me either because I refuse to disable my adblocker.

I'm sure in Al's world it's meant to signify that EV's aren't doing well but it's an article that basically says that whilst IC sales continue to fall (22.1% fall in diesel!) EV sales are up 158% on the same month last year.

That's it in a nutshell.
If you're anti-EV then 158% increase despite falls in all other types and lack of availability is a sign they're doomed.
If you're pro then the same data tells you that 158% increase year on year is non-linear and will only get faster as price drops and availability goes up.

kwackers
Posts: 13379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 6 Aug 2019, 9:45am

Cunobelin wrote:The charging times I quoted were for the most "popular" electric car.

The second point is the availability of chargers. Locally we have none of the "super" chargers, and you have to carry some 4 different cable sets to use the chargers available locally

There are also limitations with some cars as to the power input they can utilise

Newer cars charge faster, the generation after that will be faster again. Some can even be made faster with software tweaks.
Tesla's 1000 miles per hour charge rate is a sign of things to come in the not too distant future.
In a few years the number of such cars will massively outnumber the older types.

As for local chargers, it's all chicken and egg.
And the 4 different cables - nobody needs 4 different cables.
Rapid chargers already have cables attached so you don't need one. Slow chargers have a universal 7 pin plug which you'll get with the car and if you really want to play it safe you could just carry a standard 3 pin lead.

kwackers
Posts: 13379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 6 Aug 2019, 9:49am

Cunobelin wrote:Cheaper to run?

I wanted a commuting vehicle and looked at the Renault Twizy, as I did not "need" a car.

However, when I looked into the running costs, the battery "hire" was more expensive than the fuel costs for a small "City Car"

Then because of the additional weight add things like additional tyre wear, brake wear etc and the running costs rise.

In the end, the Twizy priced itself off my list

Buy a Twizy without the battery hire - they do exist.
TBH the battery hire on the Twizy is way too expensive. They're obviously pricing it as a car despite it only being 6Kwh.

Brake wear? I assumed from your posts you were making some effort. You know EV's use regenerative braking? Your main problem with brakes is likely to be rust on the discs.
And tyre wear - you're really scraping the barrel there.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 7621
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby al_yrpal » 6 Aug 2019, 11:20am

IMO generating power for travel is best done centrally in the greenest way possible and that must be good for the planet. But, at the moment EV cars are generally impractical as a sole means of transport. No doubt that will slowly change as the technology develops. The abysmal UK sales of EVs reflects the perceived lack of range, lack of charging infrastructure and lack of EVs to purchase with decent range at a reasonable price.

Are we there yet...nope. Will we get there soon, who knows? As Mick says the £600 jalopy owners will never be able to afford one and they are a massive part of the market. If you live in a place like Devon and Cornwall the power sapping hills will be a massive problem as I have discovered from my recently acquired Pedelec because it decreases range by considerably more than half. Add to that low temperatures and bang goes another chunk of range.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

kwackers
Posts: 13379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 6 Aug 2019, 11:39am

al_yrpal wrote:IMO generating power for travel is best done centrally in the greenest way possible and that must be good for the planet. But, at the moment EV cars are generally impractical as a sole means of transport. No doubt that will slowly change as the technology develops. The abysmal UK sales of EVs reflects the perceived lack of range, lack of charging infrastructure and lack of EVs to purchase with decent range at a reasonable price.

Are we there yet...nope. Will we get there soon, who knows? As Mick says the £600 jalopy owners will never be able to afford one and they are a massive part of the market. If you live in a place like Devon and Cornwall the power sapping hills will be a massive problem as I have discovered from my recently acquired Pedelec because it decreases range by considerably more than half. Add to that low temperatures and bang goes another chunk of range.

Al

Abysmal sales?

Out of interest how do you expect sales to work? From zero to 100 million in a year?
That simply isn't how it works. Takes time to ramp up production and currently production lags demand.
158% increase year on year is hardly a failure and more an indication of how things are going. As prices drop and production ramps up that value will accelerate in a non-linear fashion.
Dozens of new models appearing over the next year or two as well (22 by BMW alone).
It's an exciting time as we move away from the asthma inducing fossil burners.

Power sapping hills are far more of a problem for a pedelec than an EV. Pedelecs can't recover the cost of climbing hills on the way down them, EV's can.
Here's an interesting factoid for you. IC engines also lose range on hills for the same reason your pedelec does. And whilst inefficiency also means EV's lose range it's nothing like as much.
The "full tank" range of an EV drops by less as a percentage than the "full tank" range of an IC car on hills and by a decent margin too.

As for the £600 jalopy purchasers - nobody actually cares about them.
It sounds harsh but bottom feeders make do with whatever they can find. New car buyers otoh have choice and if they pick EV then those at the bottom will eventually also move to EV - particularly as the only reason to bottom feed is cheap motoring and if your £600 jalopy costs you £1200 a year in fuel then suddenly a more expensive EV makes a lot more sense.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 46046
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Mick F » 6 Aug 2019, 12:27pm

kwackers wrote:EV sales are up 158% on the same month last year.
You mean they're selling just a tad over half as many again - 58% more.
How many more is it?

How many more petrol cars were sold in the same period?
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 46046
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby Mick F » 6 Aug 2019, 12:29pm

kwackers wrote:Buy a Twizy without the battery hire - they do exist.
No they don't.
You can buy a Zoe without battery rental at vast expense, but the Twizy is rental only .............. or that's what Renault said when I asked.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
Posts: 13379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 6 Aug 2019, 1:08pm

Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:EV sales are up 158% on the same month last year.
You mean they're selling just a tad over half as many again - 58% more.
How many more is it?

How many more petrol cars were sold in the same period?

No, it's a 158% increase, not a 58% increase, so they've more than doubled in 12 months.

IC car sales are down. 22% reduction in the number of diesel offset by a 2% rise in petrol (presumably because diesel buyers are moving to petrol).

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 7621
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby al_yrpal » 6 Aug 2019, 1:11pm

kwackers wrote:Abysmal sales?

Out of interest how do you expect sales to work? From zero to 100 million in a year?
That simply isn't how it works. Takes time to ramp up production and currently production lags demand.
158% increase year on year is hardly a failure


It is when its only 1.4% of UK car sales!

kwackers wrote:As for the £600 jalopy purchasers - nobody actually cares about them.
It sounds harsh but bottom feeders make do with whatever they can find. .


What a lovely sentiment :D , but not altogether surprising.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

kwackers
Posts: 13379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 6 Aug 2019, 1:15pm

Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:Buy a Twizy without the battery hire - they do exist.
No they don't.
You can buy a Zoe without battery rental at vast expense, but the Twizy is rental only .............. or that's what Renault said when I asked.

This guy has one for sale.
https://www.gogreenautos.co.uk/for-sale/renault-twizy-bj62znv

Someone must have bought it at some point, I haven't looked on the dealers sites I usually look for second hand ones and tbh I find the Renault site confusing it's not that obvious that you can buy a Zoe with outright battery purchase on there.

kwackers
Posts: 13379
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: E cars and the change to the urban landscape

Postby kwackers » 6 Aug 2019, 1:19pm

al_yrpal wrote:It is when its only 1.4% of UK car sales!

1.4% this year, 4% next year, 10% the year after.

Like I said, nobody starts making millions of models off the bat.

al_yrpal wrote:What a lovely sentiment :D , but not altogether surprising.

Lovely? No, but truthful.
Name one manufacturer that cares about people buying end of life £600 cars?
There isn't one, no manufacturer gives a monkeys about a £600 car.

You seem to have problems with reality Al.
Last edited by kwackers on 6 Aug 2019, 1:20pm, edited 1 time in total.