Peterloo Massacre

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Mike Sales
Posts: 3231
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Aug 2019, 10:07pm

pete75 wrote:
I don't know where they got those figures from but according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute the Russia is the second biggest arms dealer with sales over the last ten years of 72514 million, Germany second with 19923 million, then France 18876 million, then China 15709 and Britain in with place with 12990 million. 2018 is the latest year for which figures are available. Britain was in eighth place with 740 million in sales compare to Russia's second place 6409 million.

Just go here and you can get figures for the period you choose. http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/toplist.php


You do not mention which country was the biggest arms dealer. Was it the country which supplies us with our nuclear weapons?
By this reckoning Britain emerges with little credit for restraint.
In fact, the enlightened western countries are no better than Russia and China.
We have a government department pushing arms sales.
"If we did not sell the stuff, then someone else would" is the self justification of the drug dealer.

pete75
Posts: 11648
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 11 Aug 2019, 10:30pm

Mike Sales wrote:
pete75 wrote:
I don't know where they got those figures from but according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute the Russia is the second biggest arms dealer with sales over the last ten years of 72514 million, Germany second with 19923 million, then France 18876 million, then China 15709 and Britain in with place with 12990 million. 2018 is the latest year for which figures are available. Britain was in eighth place with 740 million in sales compare to Russia's second place 6409 million.

Just go here and you can get figures for the period you choose. http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/toplist.php


You do not mention which country was the biggest arms dealer. Was it the country which supplies us with our nuclear weapons?
By this reckoning Britain emerges with little credit for restraint.
In fact, the enlightened western countries are no better than Russia and China.
We have a government department pushing arms sales.
"If we did not sell the stuff, then someone else would" is the self justification of the drug dealer.


I thought you knew which was the biggest - the USA. It's not restraint it's just the other countries just get more export orders.

landsurfer
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Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby landsurfer » 11 Aug 2019, 10:41pm

Didn't Tony Bliar apologise for Englands involvement in the Peterloo Massacre .. or was it Cameroon ...... They just seemed to keep apologising for something that happened a long time ago in which non of us where involved ... :evil:
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Ben@Forest
Posts: 1956
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Ben@Forest » 11 Aug 2019, 11:21pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I'm no prick,but someone with 20/20 vision who's seeing the society I live in regressing in the favour of the richest in our society and the poor being kick in the teeth and walked over?!

Can I just confirm that I don't think R2 is a prick, in case there is any confusion on that point.


It's Ben@Forest who's calling R2 and others pricks not you.


Oh dear, l think you just about all need more knowledge of idiomatic English ('kicking against the pricks' is in the Bible and in Shakespeare and has nothing to do with calling people names.)

But sorry if offence has been caused to any.

reohn2
Posts: 35600
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:29pm

landsurfer wrote:Didn't Tony Bliar apologise for Englands involvement in the Peterloo Massacre .. or was it Cameroon ...... They just seemed to keep apologising for something that happened a long time ago in which non of us where involved ... :evil:

Oh dear :roll:
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Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Aug 2019, 12:45am

The expression "kicking against the pricks(or goads)" is biblical quoting an earlier Greek proverb.

Oxen were in some sort of harness and the harder they resisted control the more the pricks pressed home. Resistance against the inevitable was futile.
John

Cycling and recycling

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1956
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Ben@Forest » 12 Aug 2019, 7:30am

Oldjohnw wrote:The expression "kicking against the pricks(or goads)" is biblical quoting an earlier Greek proverb.

Oxen were in some sort of harness and the harder they resisted control the more the pricks pressed home. Resistance against the inevitable was futile.


Yes, it's also the title of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds album but didn't include that as someone with a more arcane knowledge of the Bad Seeds work may have known they had different reasons for using the saying. I certainly don't know that - but one can see here the immediate kneejerk reaction it produces!

pwa
Posts: 10075
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pwa » 12 Aug 2019, 8:10am

Ben@Forest wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:The expression "kicking against the pricks(or goads)" is biblical quoting an earlier Greek proverb.

Oxen were in some sort of harness and the harder they resisted control the more the pricks pressed home. Resistance against the inevitable was futile.


Yes, it's also the title of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds album but didn't include that as someone with a more arcane knowledge of the Bad Seeds work may have known they had different reasons for using the saying. I certainly don't know that - but one can see here the immediate kneejerk reaction it produces!

I don't think anyone here was taking it too seriously, though I personally didn't know the saying. You learn something every day.

reohn2
Posts: 35600
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 12 Aug 2019, 8:17am

Ben@Forest wrote:
pwa wrote:So some of you think we are not living in more enlightened times and we haven't progressed from times when ordinary people did not have a vote, ordinary kids did not go to school, urchins swept chimneys and tended mechanical looms, women's rights hardly existed at all, capital punishment for theft was normal, etc, etc ? Don't you think you might have lost some perspective?


I think you're kicking against the pricks. There is a body of opinion that sees anything that we as a society have done as flawed and that progress has never happened.


It's not a saying I,and I suspect quite a few people on here are familiar with or aware of it's origins,however in plain speak the word 'pricks' or 'prick' is when used in certain contexts,can be offensive as I'm sure you're aware.
Now you can call me uneducated and lacking in idiomatic english if you like,I'm pretty plain speaking TBH,and to me that saying used in that context is offensive.


But sorry if offence has been caused to any


Your apology is accepted.
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Oldjohnw
Posts: 1660
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Location: Northumberland

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Aug 2019, 8:38am

The expression is only in early Bible translations (the 16thC KJV). Modern versions use the word "goads". Possibly because of awareness that the p work now has another, more offensive, meaning.

The biblical expression was used to describe St Paul's ultimately futile resistance to conversion to Christianity.

Sermon over.
John

Cycling and recycling

pete75
Posts: 11648
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 12 Aug 2019, 9:00am

And of course present day politicians are nothing like those of the nineteenth century.


Image

Mike Sales
Posts: 3231
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby Mike Sales » 12 Aug 2019, 9:04am

Oldjohnw wrote:The expression is only in early Bible translations (the 16thC KJV). Modern versions use the word "goads". Possibly because of awareness that the p work now has another, more offensive, meaning.

The biblical expression was used to describe St Paul's ultimately futile resistance to conversion to Christianity.

Sermon over.


Samuel Beckett called a book More Pricks than Kicks.

reohn2
Posts: 35600
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby reohn2 » 12 Aug 2019, 9:13am

Oldjohnw wrote:The expression is only in early Bible translations (the 16thC KJV). Modern versions use the word "goads". Possibly because of awareness that the p work now has another, more offensive, meaning.

The biblical expression was used to describe St Paul's ultimately futile resistance to conversion to Christianity.

Sermon over.

Here endeth the lesson. :wink:

I am familiar with the latter more modern translations such as the NIV and Good News translations,but always wondered how any modern day person could read the King James Version and make any sense out of it,especially children.
I've met myopic Christian's who firmly believe the Holy Spirit can't 'work' through the modern translations :roll: ,and one in particular believed dinosaur bones were planted in the ground by the devil to confuse none believers into thinking the earth was older than it actually is :shock: :roll: :?

A thought occured,those who believe we've progressed as a nation perhaps may give some thought that whilst tragedies such as Peterloo may not happen on the streets of the UK any more,selling 'weapons of mass destruction' to despotic regimes such as Saudi Arabia so they can have their own Yemenloo or a Peterloo by proxy,is somehow regarded as OK by many including are present government.
But hey,what the buyer does with them after our arms companies sell them is none of our business now is it?
And if we didnt sell them weapons someone else would,and we don't want to miss out on the profits now do we?
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brynpoeth
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Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby brynpoeth » 13 Aug 2019, 5:30am

The weapons industry contributes to gdp, we all 'benefit' from it unfortunately. Which country imports most? Does the UK import a lot?

Fortunately nearly all weapons are not used, they are tested, then scrapped a few years later and replaced with better ones

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pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Peterloo Massacre

Postby pete75 » 13 Aug 2019, 11:09am

brynpoeth wrote:The weapons industry contributes to gdp, we all 'benefit' from it unfortunately. Which country imports most? Does the UK import a lot?

Fortunately nearly all weapons are not used, they are tested, then scrapped a few years later and replaced with better ones

Today is the anniversary of the building of the Berlin Wall (1961)

2010-2018 Britain imported 4,275 million worth of arms. Exports in the same period 10,922 million.