The Brutality of the Torys

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
landsurfer
Posts: 4856
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby landsurfer » 12 Aug 2019, 10:32am

Would someone explain why the other parties .... the non brutal ones obviously ... have not stopped UC and it's injustices.
The government has the slimmest majority, why have the other parties not risen to defend the people from this injustice .... ?
Why has Jeremy not jumped into a taxi, booked by John, and driven to see the Queen to enlist her help to thwart the inhuman treatment of the poor !!

Anybody .. ??
It's not about the bike .. It's about the journey .....
The Road Goes On Forever ........................

pete75
Posts: 11659
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby pete75 » 12 Aug 2019, 10:37am

landsurfer wrote:Would someone explain why the other parties .... the non brutal ones obviously ... have not stopped UC and it's injustices.
The government has the slimmest majority, why have the other parties not risen to defend the people from this injustice .... ?
Why has Jeremy not jumped into a taxi, booked by John, and driven to see the Queen to enlist her help to thwart the inhuman treatment of the poor !!

Anybody .. ??

Because the Tories do have a majority.

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 8944
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby 661-Pete » 12 Aug 2019, 10:38am

landsurfer wrote:MP's of all parties see themselves as the ruling class in this country ....
MPs like Jo Cox, for instance?

If you really must bang your drum, this is not the place...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

landsurfer
Posts: 4856
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby landsurfer » 12 Aug 2019, 10:45am

661-Pete wrote:
landsurfer wrote:MP's of all parties see themselves as the ruling class in this country ....
MPs like Jo Cox, for instance?

If you really must bang your drum, this is not the place...


Actually it is, thats the point of this post, comment about the brutal tories ... Jo Cox's murder by a right wing maniac did not endow her with a sainthood.
She was human with all the human faults we have ....... and brutally murdered, what a waste.
It's not about the bike .. It's about the journey .....
The Road Goes On Forever ........................

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 7634
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby al_yrpal » 12 Aug 2019, 11:04am

As I understand it people on benefits get sanctioned for breaking the rules pertaining to benefits or recieving benefits to which they are entitled. It happened to my daughter who through ignorance of the rules recieved money to which she wasnt entitled. She simply had to pay it back over a 6 month period.

Can anybody spell out how differently Labour or the Liberals would handle the business of sanctioning wayward or rule breaking benefit recipients? What is their policy? Would they scrap sanctions and what effect would that have?

Is it only the Tories that would apply sanctions or is this simply the way a local official interpretted the rules in an inhuman fashion?

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 8944
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby 661-Pete » 12 Aug 2019, 11:18am

I don't see the Tories as the exclusive 'brutal' party, but I do see systems and instutitions - political persuasion immaterial - treating the most vulnerable in our society with callous indifference.

Like so many others, I feel powerless to act. Is putting a bag of rice or pasta, or some tins of fish or vegetables, in the "food bank" collection box when we go to the supermarket, anywhere near enough to assuage my sense of guilt? Probably not. After all I walk past many rough sleepers whenever I go to Brighton. I have to admit that's all I do, "walk past them"....

Anyway, I do take exception to generalising all MPs as "seeing themselves as the ruling class in this country". They are a very mixed bunch, true; they all commit errors just like any human, true; but there are some who see themselves as serving the people they were elected to represent.

I know there are issues about that: some MPs representing a constituency that voted Brex*it in 2016, feel they must support Brex*it in order to represent the 'wishes of their constituents'. They may see this as 'serving their constituents'. This is a fallacy. As we all know, demographics may have changed, people may have changed their minds, and above all, by doing so they are only serving a proportion of their constituents. The remainder, they are not only failing to serve, they are actively working against...

The opposite may equally be true of Remain-supporting MPs of course. That's why the whole Brex*it business is so divisive and disastrous...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

mercalia
Posts: 11112
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby mercalia » 12 Aug 2019, 11:23am

I wonder whether just as the Catholic church seems to have a problem with clerics who like little boys and girls, whether, Jobscentres attract sadists?

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 7634
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby al_yrpal » 12 Aug 2019, 11:44am

Deafening silence from the OP with a headline of his own making? Perhaps he would like to explain why he is hanging this exclusivly on the Tories and answer the questions I posed earlier?

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1665
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby Oldjohnw » 12 Aug 2019, 12:15pm

al_yrpal wrote:Deafening silence from the OP with a headline of his own making? Perhaps he would like to explain why he is hanging this exclusivly on the Tories and answer the questions I posed earlier?

Al


Austerity was a Tory project. The destructive rhetoric was Tory.
John

Cycling and recycling

pliptrot
Posts: 540
Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 2:50am

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby pliptrot » 12 Aug 2019, 12:20pm

al_yrpal wrote:As I understand it people on benefits get sanctioned for breaking the rules pertaining to benefits or recieving benefits to which they are entitled.
QED

mercalia
Posts: 11112
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby mercalia » 12 Aug 2019, 12:24pm

al_yrpal wrote:Deafening silence from the OP with a headline of his own making? Perhaps he would like to explain why he is hanging this exclusivly on the Tories and answer the questions I posed earlier?

Al



if you look at the article it contrasts the way things were before Universal Credit with the way things are now, where the author was helped out of poverty by the welfare state, now it just penalises you.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 7634
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby al_yrpal » 12 Aug 2019, 12:48pm

Whatever system is in place should we just cease to sanction anyone? I believe many users of food banks have been sanctioned? People were certainly sanctioned before UC was in place and its not fully introduced across the whole country yet, so sanctions cant be put down wholly to UC? Is it new sanction rules introduced by the Tories?

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 3980
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby bovlomov » 12 Aug 2019, 1:05pm

al_yrpal wrote:Whatever system is in place should we just cease to sanction anyone? I believe many users of food banks have been sanctioned? People were certainly sanctioned before UC was in place and its not fully introduced across the whole country yet, so sanctions cant be put down wholly to UC? Is it new sanction rules introduced by the Tories?

Labour and the Lib Dems were far from innocent when they were in power. Is it worse now? I think yes. As with the hostile environment, the state has become more rigid, less forgiving of the mistakes of others and more forgiving of its own mistakes. The systems of UC and tax credits are fiendishly complicated, and it is no wonder that people with limited education, mental health issues or physical disabilities don't always keep up with all of the paperwork. Added to that, there are fewer staff around to help out with that sort of thing, and the charities that might do so are inundated.

Billions have been taken away from public services. I don't think even the Tories are claiming that those reductions are due to efficiency savings. These are the consequences.

mercalia
Posts: 11112
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby mercalia » 12 Aug 2019, 1:11pm

al_yrpal wrote:Whatever system is in place should we just cease to sanction anyone? I believe many users of food banks have been sanctioned? People were certainly sanctioned before UC was in place and its not fully introduced across the whole country yet, so sanctions cant be put down wholly to UC? Is it new sanction rules introduced by the Tories?

Al



I think the article has a link on academic research that connects the increase of food bank use with UC? There are known issues that applications have to be done on line and the poorest often dont have the access or skills? You maybe right had the tories not introduced UC there would still be an increase of brutality, but I supose the complexity of UC makes it easier for claimants to make mistakes? The example of the lady in the article being sanctioned so brutally is nothing to do with UC per se? I seem to remember reading some where that there has been an increase in sanctions over the last few years with a very hign proportion being reversed when the claimant complains. Whether it is is UC or brutal tory policy is moot, its still tory policy one way or another? I posted some time ago an interview of Osborne with Andrew Neil who when asked about the limit on welfare benefits he had imposed quite casually said that if the country cant afford it then the the country cant afford it, as if the economics of the country can be compared to that of the family budget ( look atthe cash that Boris is finding to pay for Brexit ). (poor) People for him were negatives on a balance sheet

https://audioboom.com/posts/6388718-10-years-on-from-the-crash-andrew-neil-in-conversation-with-george-osborne
Last edited by mercalia on 12 Aug 2019, 1:55pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 7634
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Cully
Contact:

Re: The Brutality of the Torys

Postby al_yrpal » 12 Aug 2019, 1:45pm

If I remember rightly the benefit cap was to prevent claimants getting more in benefits than low paid working people, and to prevent benefit claimants living in costly publicly owned Knightsbridge mansions at public expense? No doubt those forcibly relocated to Merthyr Tydfil are pretty upset. Its clear that UC requires a sensible overhaul, the idea of it seems good but the execution has some serious faults which need addressing.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!