E Bike - speeding?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
reohn2
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby reohn2 » 12 Aug 2019, 5:17pm

JohnW
This morning I went for a ride toward Manchester from Leigh on the Bridgewater arm of the L&L canal to check out the newly laid sections of towpath mentioned by RickH on another thread.
The ride was an out and back of 20miles.
On the clear visibility sections I was riding comfortably at 14 to 15mph,slowing to perhaps 6 to 8mph sometimes slower depending on circumstances for pedestrians,bridges and other cyclists,etc,passing the time of day with them with reciprocal nods,waves and good mornings.
Of the dozen or so other cyclists that I passed coming the opposite way I counted three e-bikes,all cyclists but one were riding responsibly,the one that wasn't was a chap I'd estimate in his 60's riding a non electric road bike who was riding far too quick for the conditions approx 18 to 20mph,when he passed me without aknowledgement,pedestrians and children in obvious evidence,I stopped and watched as he slalomed between them without warning or notice.
Idiot :evil:
The truth of it is,there's idiots about wherever you go,whether e-assisted or not.

I feel I must take issue with you regarding differentiating between cyclist and what you think aren't real cyclists,they're all cyclists,most are responsible some are idiots whether assisted or not,but all are cyclists cycling.
That's the fact of it,which stems from a lack of responsibility and as you rightly say a 'get out of my way' attitude by a minority of the public whatever mode of transport.
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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 12 Aug 2019, 5:18pm

JohnW wrote:After all the insults and scratching each others' eyes out, the question of speed and misuse of e-bikes is a serious one.

On my local Greenway the number of e-bikes is definitely on the increase and many users are not by any means elderly. The Greenway, in it's 7-mile length, passes through several residential districts, two small towns and employment hubs, and terminates at one end in a large business/commercial/light industrial park. These all generate comparatively heavy cycle traffic (which, of course is good) especially at commuting times.

All good so far, but individual human behaviour becomes an element. Apart from scroats, yoofs and young daft lads quite a few of the commuters are people old enough to know better, but who ride the Greenway with the motorists' mentality and apparently take the view that it is for children, the elderly, disabled buggy users, ladies walking their dogs, families, partially sighted etc, etc, etc to "get out of the way" - It's the potential victims' responsibility to "get out of the way". And it's dreadful...........and becoming more and more common.


None of which is unique to e-bikes, so argues comprehensively agains many commuters, Strava Warriors and oter users of non electric bikes

And speed comes into it. There are some people on bikes (I hesitate to use the term 'cyclist' for all of them, because cyclists are better than that) who ride as fast as they can, immature mentality, possibly to impress, with no consideration or respect for others - we've all witnessed this - I could relate some of the things that I've seen which would be difficult to believe.


I note that this paragraph does not refer to e-bikes and quite rightly. This behaviour is across the board

But to return to e-bikes. To attain 15mph is one thing, within the capability of many (if not most) of us. To maintain 15mph indefinitely is something else on cycleways/Greenways/footpaths etc and potentially dangerous to others. The 15mph law is fine if taken as part of a civilised, considerate approach to the people around us, but there are those who don't practice a civilised, considerate approach.


Many cyclists travel at a faster and sustained speed, in fact, earlier on, the speed restriction was being used as an argument AGAINST e-bikes!
Appropriate speed or lack of it is again not unique to ebikes. Any speed limit would and should be applied to all bikes. A mountain bike, racer, folder, commuter bike, or ebike travelling at 15 mph is the same risk and prob lem


Don't laugh at me fort his next bit. I'm no speed merchant youngster any more, but there's a very quiet length of our local Greenway, gently downhill on railway gradient, and soon after joining I'm at 15mph immediately - nice cruising speed. The length is easily a quarter of a mile long and almost straight. Just for the hell of it, with no-one about, I'm at 25mph before I have to slow down before visibility demands a deceleration to 12mph-ish. That's just me, an old man, on a decent bike. There are some lightweight, racy looking e-bikes around now and given a 15mph start could outspeed that, with the powered assistance turned off.


.. and again many non-electric bikes that can do the same. If it is unacceptable for one, surely it. is unacceptable for the others?

Why take offence at only one?

So, in short, I can have some understanding for what Bryn means. Constant 15mph in Greenway/cyclepath/footpath conditions (i.e. Sustrans ethos) isn't always safe for others and can easily lead to higher speeds - remember that there's no max speed limit on our ("proper") bikes.


Bryn doesn't understand what he means!

He has consistently varied the speed limits, failed to rationalise why he wants them in place, state whether they are average, maximum, and why they should not apply to all bikes

Putting a statutory speed limit on e-bikes could be a major (and unenforceable) problem, and would affect us all, because it probably wouldn't end there. This is just my opinion, and I'm not going to enter into debate about it, but for what it's worth I think that if someone really NEEDS an e-bike, rather than just wanting a cheap and easily obtainable (and legal) substitute for a motor scooter/bike/car quadcycle then 12mph powered maximum would be fast enough. A lot of adult utility and leisure cycling won't much exceed 12mph on the level (I'm not talking about competition or events, just cycling)



Define "need", as above I "need a bike that does what i "Need" it to do...That is my choice and should not be limited by poor arguments fuelled by personal distaste.

Again why limit to 12 mph. A person can buy a racing bike, a folder, a recumbent, a unicycle, tricycle, tallbike, mountain bike, hybrid, cargo bike, delivery bike, tourer...and will be the same person... yet if they buy an e-bike and that person immediately become so dangerous they are limited to 12mph?

Please explain why this arbitrary and absurd limit is not being applied to ALL cycles




I think that Bryn is being a bit unfairly treated here, and it is actually a very serious issue. Abuse of the e-bike could lead to legislation to the dis-benefit of us all.


There has been no proof whatsoever of misuse that is limited to an e-bike. The issue is the demonisation of a group of cyclists. All that Bryn's uninformed ranting is doing so far is providing a solid argument for restrictions on every single cycle out there - THAT is the real danger
Last edited by Cunobelin on 12 Aug 2019, 7:29pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 12 Aug 2019, 5:24pm

Can we clarify one point for all those advocating speed limits less than the present 15.5 mph?


Are you applying these to all bikes or just e-bikes?

If not all bikes, please clarify why Person A is safe to ride a racing bike at speed, but not an e-bike?

brynpoeth
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby brynpoeth » 12 Aug 2019, 6:59pm

There is nothing worse than (not) being talked about :wink:

I do not use bad language, I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'
Why, I do not even [try to] "tell others how to live their lives"!

I have reduced my suggestion for the speed at which assistance might cut out, I think 11kmh would be suitable. Always KM/h
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JohnW
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby JohnW » 12 Aug 2019, 7:20pm

reohn2 wrote:................. The truth of it is,there's idiots about wherever you go,whether e-assisted or not....................


Absolutely John.

JohnW
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby JohnW » 12 Aug 2019, 7:31pm

reohn2 wrote:JohnW................I feel I must take issue with you regarding differentiating between cyclist and what you think aren't real cyclists,they're all cyclists,most are responsible some are idiots whether assisted or not,but all are cyclists cycling.
That's the fact of it,which stems from a lack of responsibility and as you rightly say a 'get out of my way' attitude by a minority of the public whatever mode of transport.


It's just my terminology John - I know what I mean, and you know what I mean. To explain what I mean in simple terms would need a post longer than I want to spend time on now. You know what I mean..............but, try this - if we see another bike stopped and the rider scratching their head or bothering with a wheel out of the frame, we stop and ask if the cyclist has all they need, and are they OK? Someone who is just someone on a bike doesn't, and doesn't know why we do it, or the generations of tradition behind it.

You've "spoken to me" about this before, but I don't know another way of expressing it. There we are - we disagree on the fine point of terminology.

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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 12 Aug 2019, 7:35pm

brynpoeth wrote:There is nothing worse than (not) being talked about :wink:

I do not use bad language, I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'
Why, I do not even [try to] "tell others how to live their lives"!

I have reduced my suggestion for the speed at which assistance might cut out, I think 11kmh would be suitable. Always KM/h


What would be the result?

Why is Albert Scatterthwaite from Gypping dangerous on an e-bike at 12km/h but safe on a racer, recumbent, folder, tourer, unicycle, tallbike, cargo bike, delivery bike, trike at double that speed?

You keep on trying to provoke by pushing more and more ludicrous limits, yet refuse to give and sensible argument to support either the imposition itself or the arbitrary choice.

Either you are deliberately winding people up or can make a coherent response. I have no confidence the latter will happen

JohnW
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby JohnW » 12 Aug 2019, 7:37pm

Cunobelin wrote:Can we clarify one point for all those advocating speed limits less than the present 15.5 mph?


Are you applying these to all bikes or just e-bikes?

If not all bikes, please clarify why Person A is safe to ride a racing bike at speed, but not an e-bike?


Oh heck Cunobelin - I'm not applying anything to anything - I'm in no position to apply anything, except perhaps ointment to a grazed knee.
From your responses I think that we see things on this and associated matters in the same way - I think we agree.

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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby JohnW » 12 Aug 2019, 7:40pm

brynpoeth wrote:.............. I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'..................


Sorry to be objectionable Bryn - I feel awful - gosh, I don't know where to put myself - and there I was, trying to say something better about you.

brynpoeth
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby brynpoeth » 12 Aug 2019, 7:51pm

Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:There is nothing worse than (not) being talked about :wink:

I do not use bad language, I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'
Why, I do not even [try to] "tell others how to live their lives"!

I have reduced my suggestion for the speed at which assistance might cut out, I think 11kmh would be suitable. Always KM/h


What would be the result?

Why is Albert Scatterthwaite from Gypping dangerous on an e-bike at 12km/h but safe on a racer, recumbent, folder, tourer, unicycle, tallbike, cargo bike, delivery bike, trike at double that speed?

You keep on trying to provoke by pushing more and more ludicrous limits, yet refuse to give and sensible argument to support either the imposition itself or the arbitrary choice.

Either you are deliberately winding people up or can make a coherent response. I have no confidence the latter will happen

I am not trying to provoke or wind anyone up, I am interested in learning!
Speed kills, simple as that. On narrow cycleways in town 10 kmh can be too fast
I was overtaken by an e-scooter today

My evidence is that I am often endangered by speeding criminals on e-bikes and on cycles, undertaking is common

Speeds must be kept down for all 'bikes'

I think e-bikes should be a niche product, not mainstream
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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 12 Aug 2019, 8:12pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:There is nothing worse than (not) being talked about :wink:

I do not use bad language, I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'
Why, I do not even [try to] "tell others how to live their lives"!

I have reduced my suggestion for the speed at which assistance might cut out, I think 11kmh would be suitable. Always KM/h


What would be the result?

Why is Albert Scatterthwaite from Gypping dangerous on an e-bike at 12km/h but safe on a racer, recumbent, folder, tourer, unicycle, tallbike, cargo bike, delivery bike, trike at double that speed?

You keep on trying to provoke by pushing more and more ludicrous limits, yet refuse to give and sensible argument to support either the imposition itself or the arbitrary choice.

Either you are deliberately winding people up or can make a coherent response. I have no confidence the latter will happen

I am not trying to provoke or wind anyone up, I am interested in learning!
Speed kills, simple as that. On narrow cycleways in town 10 kmh can be too fast
I was overtaken by an e-scooter today

My evidence is that I am often endangered by speeding criminals on e-bikes and on cycles, undertaking is common

Speeds must be kept down for all 'bikes'

I think e-bikes should be a niche product, not mainstream



So - at last you are now clearly advocating a 12 km/h speed limit for ALL bikes, whether they are e-bikes or not is an irrelevance

THank you

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Cunobelin
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cunobelin » 12 Aug 2019, 8:14pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:There is nothing worse than (not) being talked about :wink:

I do not use bad language, I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'
Why, I do not even [try to] "tell others how to live their lives"!

I have reduced my suggestion for the speed at which assistance might cut out, I think 11kmh would be suitable. Always KM/h


What would be the result?

Why is Albert Scatterthwaite from Gypping dangerous on an e-bike at 12km/h but safe on a racer, recumbent, folder, tourer, unicycle, tallbike, cargo bike, delivery bike, trike at double that speed?

You keep on trying to provoke by pushing more and more ludicrous limits, yet refuse to give and sensible argument to support either the imposition itself or the arbitrary choice.

Either you are deliberately winding people up or can make a coherent response. I have no confidence the latter will happen

I am not trying to provoke or wind anyone up, I am interested in learning!
Speed kills, simple as that. On narrow cycleways in town 10 kmh can be too fast
I was overtaken by an e-scooter today

My evidence is that I am often endangered by speeding criminals on e-bikes and on cycles, undertaking is common

Speeds must be kept down for all 'bikes'

I think e-bikes should be a niche product, not mainstream


They should simply be a choice, made by each individual on what that person feels they need

Grandad
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Grandad » 12 Aug 2019, 9:06pm

I think e-bikes should be a niche product, not mainstream


They are, just a tiny trickle in the total flow of all other types of bikes

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Cugel
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cugel » 12 Aug 2019, 9:32pm

brynpoeth wrote:There is nothing worse than (not) being talked about :wink:

I do not use bad language, I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'
Why, I do not even [try to] "tell others how to live their lives"!

I have reduced my suggestion for the speed at which assistance might cut out, I think 11kmh would be suitable. Always KM/h


Bryn, old Taff: you are in danger of having uninformed and entirely bald opinions. In fact, you do have them. This is beneath you. Please desist.

Cugel

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Cugel
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Re: E Bike - speeding?

Postby Cugel » 12 Aug 2019, 9:36pm

brynpoeth wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:There is nothing worse than (not) being talked about :wink:

I do not use bad language, I object to the use of the terms 'scratching eyes out' and 'hatred'
Why, I do not even [try to] "tell others how to live their lives"!

I have reduced my suggestion for the speed at which assistance might cut out, I think 11kmh would be suitable. Always KM/h


What would be the result?

Why is Albert Scatterthwaite from Gypping dangerous on an e-bike at 12km/h but safe on a racer, recumbent, folder, tourer, unicycle, tallbike, cargo bike, delivery bike, trike at double that speed?

You keep on trying to provoke by pushing more and more ludicrous limits, yet refuse to give and sensible argument to support either the imposition itself or the arbitrary choice.

Either you are deliberately winding people up or can make a coherent response. I have no confidence the latter will happen

I am not trying to provoke or wind anyone up, I am interested in learning!
Speed kills, simple as that. On narrow cycleways in town 10 kmh can be too fast
I was overtaken by an e-scooter today

My evidence is that I am often endangered by speeding criminals on e-bikes and on cycles, undertaking is common

Speeds must be kept down for all 'bikes'

I think e-bikes should be a niche product, not mainstream


You're not interested in learning. You're interested in sticking doggedly (even dogmatically) to a bald and uniformed opinion. This is not an attractive habit.

Cugel