Help Choosing A Helmet

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Witterings
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Witterings » 27 Aug 2019, 10:08am

freiston wrote:Either way, you said it smashed. Now you're saying that it smashed but is intact and there is hardly any perceivable damage :roll: - it seems like you didn't hit your head/helmet as hard as you first made it seem - sounds like cognitive bias to me. With respect to wishing you had a helmet on other parts of your body - why not buy these and cycle in them? https://www.decathlon.co.uk/C-313366-sk ... ection-kit



I've copied and pasted exactly what I originally wrote below .... can you please explain to everyone exactly which part of it says the helmet smashed up .... I did say "I absolutely smashed my head into the ground" (no mention of the helmet there) but that's very different to the helmet smashed to bits ... it also goes on to say my helmet and my head were the only impacted bits that came out totally unhurt .... again I don't quite see how you translate that into the helmet was smashed up????

I came off the other week and absolutely smashed my head into the ground and my helmet and my head was the only bit of me that impacted and came out totally unhurt

Bonefishblues
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Aug 2019, 11:15am

Let's not let facts intrude on this, shall we :wink:

tim-b
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby tim-b » 27 Aug 2019, 11:16am

Hi
...then it didn't absorb significant energy

Helmets don't only absorb energy by being "flattened", they also transfer it elsewhere in the structure where there may be deformation and/or breakage, and some impact energy changes to heat and to noise
The mechanics of a real-world collision are complex and impracticable to record; a head-first collision with a car's bonnet might see a chunk of energy transferred to deform the bonnet but a collision with the windscreen transfers less and the helmet absorbs more
Wearing (or not wearing) a helmet isn't a legal requirement in the UK and if a person feels safer wearing (or not wearing) a helmet then that's their choice. I don't get the need for inconclusive studies and arguments amongst cyclists about something that isn't a requirement when you could be putting that time, energy and money elsewhere and asking for something that should be a requirement
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

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Cunobelin
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Cunobelin » 27 Aug 2019, 6:09pm

mjr wrote:Ah the good old self-advertising helmet. No evidence it improves outcomes in general, but they sure do smash up impressively.

As far as I know, there are basically three standards: Snell B95 which is basic, testing helmets from shops falling onto stones, kerbs and floors; B90 which is slightly weaker; and EN1078 which is slightly weaker again, doesn't test on a stone and tests helmets chosen by the maker, not what's actually in shops! IMO all current standards are too weak and it's better not to enlarge, weight and insulate my head with unrecyclable plastic. For more info, see the helmet forum.

No standard tests MIPS or most other claimed improvements. If you pay for those, you're trusting the makers even more.


Current testing by Snell shows MIPS has no advantage over other helmets, see here

There is also (yet another) case where the real helmets on sale do not pass the minimum testing when tested independently. See here

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Cunobelin
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Cunobelin » 27 Aug 2019, 6:16pm

tim-b wrote:Hi
...then it didn't absorb significant energy

Helmets don't only absorb energy by being "flattened", they also transfer it elsewhere in the structure where there may be deformation and/or breakage, and some impact energy changes to heat and to noise
The mechanics of a real-world collision are complex and impracticable to record; a head-first collision with a car's bonnet might see a chunk of energy transferred to deform the bonnet but a collision with the windscreen transfers less and the helmet absorbs more
Wearing (or not wearing) a helmet isn't a legal requirement in the UK and if a person feels safer wearing (or not wearing) a helmet then that's their choice. I don't get the need for inconclusive studies and arguments amongst cyclists about something that isn't a requirement when you could be putting that time, energy and money elsewhere and asking for something that should be a requirement
Regards
tim-b


With less material due to the venting, the ability of modern helmets to absorb that energy is deceased. This is exacerbated by the fact that the remaining material has to be denser to maintain the shape and structure, again decreasing the ability to absorb impact energy.

As for the "argument", it is a bit like Brexit. There is a minority who want to force helmets on others with emotional and moral blackmail. Like supporters of brexit they don't believe in evidence, science or experts, simply anecdote

tim-b
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby tim-b » 27 Aug 2019, 7:04pm

Hi
Current testing by Snell shows MIPS has no advantage over other helmets, see here

In the same article 17000+ tests in Sweden showed helmets with MIPS are significantly better

There is also (yet another) case where the real helmets on sale do not pass the minimum testing when tested independently. See here

US market with testing similar to CSPS, "probably means both are marginal for impact performance and would possibly pass in some labs but not others"
"Trek says that independent lab testing conducted after Consumer Reports' notified Trek has been unable to replicate Consumer Reports' findings."

Like supporters of brexit they don't believe in evidence, science or experts, simply anecdote

Nobody knows what will happen on Brexit taking effect and anybody telling us otherwise is simply being anecdotal

I don't get the need for inconclusive studies

and I still don't

EDIT: missed one
With less material due to the venting, the ability of modern helmets to absorb that energy is deceased. This is exacerbated by the fact that the remaining material has to be denser to maintain the shape and structure, again decreasing the ability to absorb impact energy.

Please would you link to your source for this?

Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

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Sweep
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Sweep » 27 Aug 2019, 7:20pm

Cunobelin wrote:
As for the "argument", it is a bit like Brexit. There is a minority who want to force helmets on others with emotional and moral blackmail. Like supporters of brexit they don't believe in evidence, science or experts, simply anecdote


er no, it's not like Brexit at all.

And I don't see anyone on here trying to force anyone to wear a helmet.

Quite the opposite.

Someone being told they are delusional for thinking their head hit the ground.

And lots of anti helmet stuff from folk when a person who just wants advice on a new one (see the thread title) asks a simple question and as far as I can see is not trying to tell anyone else that THEY should wear one if they don't want to.

I wear one, I wouldn't not do, if someone doesn't want to, their choice if they are an adult.

Do keep us posted witterings.

And still hoping that folk would just read the thread title.

And take their hobby horses and games elsewhere.
Sweep

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Cunobelin
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Cunobelin » 27 Aug 2019, 8:09pm

Sweep wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
As for the "argument", it is a bit like Brexit. There is a minority who want to force helmets on others with emotional and moral blackmail. Like supporters of brexit they don't believe in evidence, science or experts, simply anecdote


er no, it's not like Brexit at all.

And I don't see anyone on here trying to force anyone to wear a helmet.

Quite the opposite.

Someone being told they are delusional for thinking their head hit the ground.

And lots of anti helmet stuff from folk when a person who just wants advice on a new one (see the thread title) asks a simple question and as far as I can see is not trying to tell anyone else that THEY should wear one if they don't want to.

I wear one, I wouldn't not do, if someone doesn't want to, their choice if they are an adult.

Do keep us posted witterings.

And still hoping that folk would just read the thread title.

And take their hobby horses and games elsewhere.



... Another similarity to Brexit, any evidence that is not entirely sycophantic to helmets id dismissed as "anti -helmet" the equivalent of the way anything not entirely sycophantic to Brexit is dismissed as "Project Fear"

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Cunobelin
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Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Cunobelin » 27 Aug 2019, 8:16pm

tim-b wrote:
With less material due to the venting, the ability of modern helmets to absorb that energy is deceased. This is exacerbated by the fact that the remaining material has to be denser to maintain the shape and structure, again decreasing the ability to absorb impact energy.

Please would you link to your source for this?

Regards
tim-b


The Bicycle Helmet Safety Institue

A US-based pro-helmet organisation.

tim-b
Posts: 1190
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby tim-b » 27 Aug 2019, 8:42pm

Hi
The Bicycle Helmet Safety Institue. A US-based pro-helmet organisation.

I found this, "The thinner helmets and the ones with bigger vents have to use denser foam to pass the lab tests to meet a standard. We had thought that was an indication that they may not be best for soft landings. Our project to test cheap and expensive helmets showed otherwise, since the two types performed almost exactly the same." (https://www.helmets.org/liners.htm)
Was that it?
Anyway, this is getting us nowhere, apart from a free transfer to that sub-forum. I'm out
Regards
tim-b
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Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Help Choosing A Helmet

Postby Bonefishblues » 27 Aug 2019, 9:48pm

Sweep wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
As for the "argument", it is a bit like Brexit. There is a minority who want to force helmets on others with emotional and moral blackmail. Like supporters of brexit they don't believe in evidence, science or experts, simply anecdote


er no, it's not like Brexit at all.

And I don't see anyone on here trying to force anyone to wear a helmet.

Quite the opposite.

Someone being told they are delusional for thinking their head hit the ground.

And lots of anti helmet stuff from folk when a person who just wants advice on a new one (see the thread title) asks a simple question and as far as I can see is not trying to tell anyone else that THEY should wear one if they don't want to.

I wear one, I wouldn't not do, if someone doesn't want to, their choice if they are an adult.

Do keep us posted witterings.

And still hoping that folk would just read the thread title.

And take their hobby horses and games elsewhere.

Pretty much this.