"Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

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deliquium
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"Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby deliquium » 8 Sep 2019, 11:30am

Current pedalable joys

"you would be surprised at the number of people in these parts who nearly are half people and half bicycles"

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gaz
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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby gaz » 8 Sep 2019, 12:58pm

Don't eliminate concussions in cycling either: https://twitter.com/RecreationLaw/statu ... 7632036869
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The utility cyclist
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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Sep 2019, 7:13pm

Nor in Ice hockey, they don't reduce head injuries/deaths in cricket either, don't reduce them in boxing, nor skiing, they save millions of lives though :roll:

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Wanlock Dod
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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby Wanlock Dod » 8 Sep 2019, 9:40pm

the untold wreckage of concussions in surfing
There is a reluctance to wear protective headgear,...

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The utility cyclist
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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Sep 2019, 1:54am

Wanlock Dod wrote:the untold wreckage of concussions in surfing
There is a reluctance to wear protective headgear,...

And no evidence that the headgear would protect and ignores that surfers like elsewhere would/do take greater risks so end up in worse predicaments otherwise with next to zero actual protection for the brain! :x

Given the number of drownings we should insist on every swimmer/bather wearing a life preserver, Australia has a particularly high number of drownings every year(270+ last time I looked), they should most definitely make it compulsory to have them for when in the swimming pool and in the sea/lakes, whenever people are within 25m of open water, if it saves one life and all that :roll: And just to make sure whilst people have a bath as well and the helmets for those that shower, plus elbow, knee and body armour around the kidnes, plus meck gaurds, you csan never be too careful!

In the UK there were increases in infant drownings in the bath during the 90s/early 00s, six related to bath seats where parents have left them thinking the child was safe, yet more evidence of risk compensation culture and the whole BS surrounding 'safety' aids which have actually cost lives! :twisted:

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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby pjclinch » 9 Sep 2019, 10:45am

The utility cyclist wrote:
Wanlock Dod wrote:the untold wreckage of concussions in surfing
There is a reluctance to wear protective headgear,...

And no evidence that the headgear would protect and ignores that surfers like elsewhere would/do take greater risks so end up in worse predicaments otherwise with next to zero actual protection for the brain! :x


How much time have you spent surfing in any way, shape or form?

I occasionally surf kayaks. On one occasion I was looped and landed on my head in shallow enough water that my head took a pretty big whack. It was soft sand so nothing was going to fracture, there was no obvious evidence I'd have been concussed without my helmet, but the salient point was I took a pretty daze-worthy whack while in an environment I couldn't breathe in, and where I would have been trapped upside down and underwater had I not been able to muster some sense (in a kayak you're in it, not on it like a board).
There is more to head protection than concussions and fractures

If you go off on one regarding just about any use of helmets in areas where there is no evidence you have valid experience people might start thinking you're a stuck-record.

Pete.
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Mike Sales
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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Sep 2019, 11:03am

pjclinch wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:

And no evidence that the headgear would protect and ignores that surfers like elsewhere would/do take greater risks so end up in worse predicaments otherwise with next to zero actual protection for the brain! :x


How much time have you spent surfing in any way, shape or form?

I occasionally surf kayaks. On one occasion I was looped and landed on my head in shallow enough water that my head took a pretty big whack. It was soft sand so nothing was going to fracture, there was no obvious evidence I'd have been concussed without my helmet, but the salient point was I took a pretty daze-worthy whack while in an environment I couldn't breathe in, and where I would have been trapped upside down and underwater had I not been able to muster some sense (in a kayak you're in it, not on it like a board).
There is more to head protection than concussions and fractures

If you go off on one regarding just about any use of helmets in areas where there is no evidence you have valid experience people might start thinking you're a stuck-record.

Pete.


He does make the point about risk homeostasis, which is a valid one, I think.

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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby mattheus » 9 Sep 2019, 11:11am

I don't need to spend much time in the sea to realise that kayak surfing and board-surfing* are very different activities.


*I am pretty certain that the Man on the Clapham Omnibus thinks of surfboards when someone discusses "surfing". he will not spare a thought for kayaks, like it or not.

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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby pjclinch » 9 Sep 2019, 11:18am

Mike Sales wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:And no evidence that the headgear would protect and ignores that surfers like elsewhere would/do take greater risks so end up in worse predicaments otherwise with next to zero actual protection for the brain! :x


How much time have you spent surfing in any way, shape or form?

I occasionally surf kayaks. On one occasion I was looped and landed on my head in shallow enough water that my head took a pretty big whack. It was soft sand so nothing was going to fracture, there was no obvious evidence I'd have been concussed without my helmet, but the salient point was I took a pretty daze-worthy whack while in an environment I couldn't breathe in, and where I would have been trapped upside down and underwater had I not been able to muster some sense (in a kayak you're in it, not on it like a board).
There is more to head protection than concussions and fractures

If you go off on one regarding just about any use of helmets in areas where there is no evidence you have valid experience people might start thinking you're a stuck-record.


He does make the point about risk homeostasis, which is a valid one, I think.


It is a fair point, but like so many of his other fair points he buries it by over-stretching.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Sep 2019, 11:45am

pjclinch wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:

And no evidence that the headgear would protect and ignores that surfers like elsewhere would/do take greater risks so end up in worse predicaments otherwise with next to zero actual protection for the brain! :x


How much time have you spent surfing in any way, shape or form?

I occasionally surf kayaks. On one occasion I was looped and landed on my head in shallow enough water that my head took a pretty big whack. It was soft sand so nothing was going to fracture, there was no obvious evidence I'd have been concussed without my helmet, but the salient point was I took a pretty daze-worthy whack while in an environment I couldn't breathe in, and where I would have been trapped upside down and underwater had I not been able to muster some sense (in a kayak you're in it, not on it like a board).
There is more to head protection than concussions and fractures

If you go off on one regarding just about any use of helmets in areas where there is no evidence you have valid experience people might start thinking you're a stuck-record.

Pete.
how often have you played cricket without a helmet/watched your team mates with, boxed and had a good amateur brother who boxed in both eras of no headguard/headguard or worn pads and crash helmets to play collision sport and one collision sport without?
I have done all four, I've ridden motorbikes with/without helmets also, have you done any of that, if so how did you feel wearing protection not wearing?

I have kayaked as well, not loads and just for fun 20+ years ago, I didn't wear a helmet but then I don't do stuff out my depth that would cause me to have an incident, never having being in the drink proves my point. You also ignore that increasing your head size is likely why you whacked your head, the helmet made and does make matters worse, you have watched elite level kayaking right and others such as newbies when they dunk right?

The helmet increases confusion and of course loads the head area with water making the head heavier particularly under water, not to mention the straps increasing chance of snagging under water, you know all those irregular objects submerged, the helmet itself could mean you getting wedged/whacked were an unhelmeted head would not, even less so IF because you're taking less risk means your less likely to be in that predicament in the first instance.
But how many kayaking deaths due to not wearing helmets and how many with?

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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Sep 2019, 12:18pm

to add. "Fortunately, fatalities are uncommon in these activities, with rafting and kayaking fatalities occurring at a rate of 0.55 and 2.9 per 100,000 user days, respectively. Injury rates for kayaking and rafting are 3 to 6 and 0.26 to 2.1 per 100000 boating days" https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(03)70564-X/pdf

so that means if you kayaked every day for 490 years you might die once from a kayaking incident and not necessarily head related :roll: :lol:
We know kayak/water sport helmets are more rigid than cycle helmets, they deform less, they are more likely to induce/allow brain injury than even a poor cycle helmet.
EDIT, sorry I got the fatality figure the wrong way around, Rafting is one death per 490 years worth of rafting, Kayaking is one death per 94 years worth. so if you kayak once a week, every week the chances of a death occurring is one every 661 years, for rafting once a week it's once every 3430 years :lol:
Maybe some cyclists should stick to rafting given the number of incidents they have 8)
Last edited by The utility cyclist on 9 Sep 2019, 2:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Sep 2019, 12:25pm

pjclinch wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
pjclinch wrote:
How much time have you spent surfing in any way, shape or form?

I occasionally surf kayaks. On one occasion I was looped and landed on my head in shallow enough water that my head took a pretty big whack. It was soft sand so nothing was going to fracture, there was no obvious evidence I'd have been concussed without my helmet, but the salient point was I took a pretty daze-worthy whack while in an environment I couldn't breathe in, and where I would have been trapped upside down and underwater had I not been able to muster some sense (in a kayak you're in it, not on it like a board).
There is more to head protection than concussions and fractures

If you go off on one regarding just about any use of helmets in areas where there is no evidence you have valid experience people might start thinking you're a stuck-record.


He does make the point about risk homeostasis, which is a valid one, I think.


It is a fair point, but like so many of his other fair points he buries it by over-stretching.

Over stretching, you mean that which comes from the pro helmet camp? No, merely using science and logic, you lot are just like the 'fuzzie-wuzzies', you don't like it up 'em, particularly when it comes to being unravelled and proven wrong! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Sep 2019, 12:58pm

Sea Kayak - Gordon Brown
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby Wanlock Dod » 9 Sep 2019, 1:21pm

pjclinch wrote:I occasionally surf kayaks. On one occasion I was looped and landed on my head in shallow enough water that my head took a pretty big whack. It was soft sand so nothing was going to fracture, there was no obvious evidence I'd have been concussed without my helmet, but the salient point was I took a pretty daze-worthy whack while in an environment I couldn't breathe in, and where I would have been trapped upside down and underwater had I not been able to muster some sense (in a kayak you're in it, not on it like a board).
There is more to head protection than concussions and fractures

So do helmets provide a meaningful improvement in the safety of kayakists?

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Re: "Helmets don't eliminate concussions" American Football

Postby Tigerbiten » 9 Sep 2019, 2:47pm

In all sports, helmets do best what they're designed to do .........
Stop blood/brains leaking out after being hit on the head by an object.
But due to risk compensation, the safer you feel the the more often you tend to hit your head.
The harder the hit then the more risk of unseen concussive damage due to brain bouncing/twisting around inside the skull.
Because it's unseen and tends to be in most cases only sight, it's only fairly recently this has been studied with NMR/CT scans and the slight damage caused has really come to light.

Luck ............ :D