** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 8 Oct 2019, 4:09pm

Mick F wrote:Hang on a sec!
No negotiations from me, other than "we should never have joined in the first place".

The issue I have, is that we voted to leave. We didn't vote for arguments or hardship or upset ........... well, I didn't anyway. Can't comment on why other folk voted leave.

I have no issues with the EU in general, but it's the U bit of it that I object to and always have done. Co-operation, trade, free movement of people etc is fine by me. In Europe, but not ruled by Europe is a mantra I can agree with.

It's a small step from European Union to Union of Europe.
Get out whilst we still can. It's going to be difficult I know, but out we should go.

We voted to leave 3 years ago and with very different things on offer from leave campaign than have happened in reality.

People are complaining about "it was over 3 years ago" but Article 50 is a 2 year thing whatever. Add to that delays because the leave campaigners had no idea what they actually wanted so we wasted 6 months whilst leave failed to decide what they wanted and we wasting more time now because leave still can't decide what they want.

And population demographics have changed so your saying "we voted to leave" is not much more valid that me saying "we voted to join".

Ian

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 8 Oct 2019, 4:42pm

al_yrpal wrote:As for the other slurs and unwarranted insults its just par for the course in a stream of bile and hate that those who voted leave have had to put up with.
Yes indeed. Like the death threats levelled at Paula Sherriff, MP. Like the death threats levelled at Tulip Siddiq, MP. Like the death threats levelled at Rushanara Ali, MP. Like the death threats levelled at Luciana Berger, MP. Plenty at bile and hate at those ...er... Leave voters....?

No - wait! Just checking - none of the above were Leave voters. :mrgreen:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -they-face
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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 8 Oct 2019, 4:52pm

al_yrpal wrote:Fear, uncertainty and emotional attachment could equally apply to Remainers too.

Al :lol:


I think there is an emotional attachment to the EU amongst some Remainers, myself included. In fact, I reckon most people were surprised at that - after all it's only an old lumbering bureaucracy. But the EU does pull at some heart strings, including those of peace and reconciliation. The economic stuff leaves me cold I'm afraid - all those cars being produced all over the place. I'm also moved by the expressions of support from other countries and the feelings that many immigrants to the UK have about us.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 8 Oct 2019, 5:19pm

horizon wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Fear, uncertainty and emotional attachment could equally apply to Remainers too.

Al :lol:


I think there is an emotional attachment to the EU amongst some Remainers, myself included. In fact, I reckon most people were surprised at that - after all it's only an old lumbering bureaucracy. But the EU does pull at some heart strings, including those of peace and reconciliation. The economic stuff leaves me cold I'm afraid - all those cars being produced all over the place. I'm also moved by the expressions of support from other countries and the feelings that many immigrants to the UK have about us.


Some people havent known anything but the EU, so there is certainly fear amongst them. Some quote peace and reconciliation and whilst I appreciate that, I cannot understand how the EU figures in that all these years later after WWII. As for the car production, the genie is out of the bottle with these low cost contracts, a curse methinks. Locally the weekly coach from Bulgaria ships 50 in and out to work at the chicken factory to live a family in one room. The factory should be paying decent wages to attract the local 'unemployed' into a job they see as too hard IMO. The immigrant Nurses, Doctors and Care Workers I have met recently have been almost 100% great, we need them.

Al
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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 8 Oct 2019, 5:21pm

horizon wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Fear, uncertainty and emotional attachment could equally apply to Remainers too.

Al :lol:


I think there is an emotional attachment to the EU amongst some Remainers, myself included. In fact, I reckon most people were surprised at that - after all it's only an old lumbering bureaucracy. But the EU does pull at some heart strings, including those of peace and reconciliation. The economic stuff leaves me cold I'm afraid - all those cars being produced all over the place. I'm also moved by the expressions of support from other countries and the feelings that many immigrants to the UK have about us.

If one is after grand generalisations, for me the EU is more focused on protections and working for the citizens whilst the UK Government is more concerned with protecting the profits for the fellow alumni ... and business (which is mostly profits for the fellow alumni). It's not an absolute and there are examples of failings in this regard on both sides but as a generalisation I feel EU is significantly stronger on focusing on people rather than business.

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 8 Oct 2019, 5:35pm

I think the negotiations are going well for Boris. He never wanted a deal. If he did there are things apparently deliberately buried in his proposal that the EU could never agree to e.g. both sides agreeing to NEVER establish a border and at the same time giving Stormont the option to withdrawing, yet the commitment to no border on the UK and EU would remain even once Stormont/DUP had withdrawn. If the UK had a land border with e.g. Turkey, would we ever agree to never ever creating a border along where the two countries met (irrespective of rules, regulations, immigration, etc.). No country could ever agree to that and Boris would know that (it was reported this morning on BBC that when the EU saw that they had to ask the UK if it was a mistake it was such a daft idea).

I have the impression Boris wants the negotiations to fail so he can do his Trump bit "People vs Parliament", "evil EU refusing our generous terms" in the hope and with the aim of many Brexit Party supporters switching to the Conservatives. Anybody looking, even glancing at the reports on the costs and impacts of a No-Deal Brexit (from reputable places (including the Brexit supporting Government itself) would never consider such a choice. But "the evil Parliament forced me", "You need a true believer to lead you to the promised land ..." is all he's after for the coming General election and he's getting it.

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 8 Oct 2019, 5:38pm

Hi Folk, I don't recall the issue of an E.U. Army being on the agenda in Brussels?
But apparently one of the Crony Place -Men at the Super State is talking up the need? Certainly wasn't mentioned during the Euro Elections. Or was the small print smaller than usual?
It is always said that Leavers never understood the nature of the situation if we leave, but surely the same must apply to Remainers at the ongoing morphing of the E.U.? Only the "Insiders" i.e. cronies of the Council have seen the agenda :twisted: . IGIMNCB MM

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 8 Oct 2019, 5:49pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi Folk, I don't recall the issue of an E.U. Army being on the agenda in Brussels?
But apparently one of the Crony Place -Men at the Super State is talking up the need? Certainly wasn't mentioned during the Euro Elections. Or was the small print smaller than usual?
It is always said that Leavers never understood the nature of the situation if we leave, but surely the same must apply to Remainers at the ongoing morphing of the E.U.? Only the "Insiders" i.e. cronies of the Council have seen the agenda :twisted: . IGIMNCB MM

The ongoing "morphing" of the EU is subject to treaty and every state gets a veto to treaty changes and that means the UK can veto any such ideas it disagrees with - so no "morphing" without UK approval from out democratically elected representatives.

A bit like NATO without the US - do leavers think NATO is spawn of the devil?

EU army would actually make a lot of sense depending on the details. The reality of it would mean that national armies would be more coordinated and thus better able to deploy to situations together. Given that UK military generally deploys with other nation's military, it is far more efficient, safer, cheaper, more effective if e.g. they use kit that is interoperable (e.g. spares, ammunition, communications, etc. is shareable/inter-operable). But that is subject to the details and they would be subject to negotiation and every state would have a veto.

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 8 Oct 2019, 6:14pm

There was some discussion of an EU military. IIRC, it is meant to be set up somewhat like NATO, and to fill some of the gaps that US expenditure reductions have created in NATO. Although it could be seen as a natural outcome of a common defence policy, I think that the US reductions in expenditure were the real driver.
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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 8 Oct 2019, 6:25pm

The four nations of the UK have a common army so it certainly isn't a new idea.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 8 Oct 2019, 6:36pm

al_yrpal wrote:Fear, uncertainty and emotional attachment could equally apply to Remainers too. As for the other slurs and unwarranted insults its just par for the course in a stream of bile and hate that those who voted leave have had to put up with. Personally its like water off a ducks back. I am quite clear and confident that we are leaving which suits me fine, with or without a deal.

Al :lol:

Don't keep accusing us of on the Remain side of such things. With the snide little laugh at the end.

You won the referendum and it gives you a position of strength.

Broadly we remain people been polite, if frustrated, with the things you already know about, like being wrong about so much that has come to pass!

Personal attachment to the EU exists for sure and I am old enough to remember not being a member.

Wonderful experiences and meetings with diverse and intelligent people remain pivotal moments in my life.
I also made a bob or two by being able to travel and work freely across some of Europe.

And you, Al, did too, when you worked and traded there, if I understood some of your older posts?
You took your chance at that time but now you are retired you want to prevent another generation having the same easy opportunity, it seems to me. Why?

I cannot understand your absolute rancour directed at the EU. It must come from some dodgy and biased sources I think.

In the light of recent terrible economic figures and a further weakening of Sterling, any comments about that?
You're happy with the care workers etc cos it suits you personally I would respectfully suggest.

Your African (or American) chicken will be cheaper no doubt but if you want less exploited labour in UK food production, then be prepared to pay more.
IMHO it is that simple a sum because agriculture is pared to the bone already in many sectors.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 8 Oct 2019, 6:42pm

Al_rpal
I did ask for your reasons that you claim to have outlined and which I'm completely unaware of,if you could please.
Last edited by reohn2 on 8 Oct 2019, 7:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 8 Oct 2019, 6:47pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:Hang on a sec!
No negotiations from me, other than "we should never have joined in the first place".

The issue I have, is that we voted to leave. We didn't vote for arguments or hardship or upset ........... well, I didn't anyway. Can't comment on why other folk voted leave.

I have no issues with the EU in general, but it's the U bit of it that I object to and always have done. Co-operation, trade, free movement of people etc is fine by me. In Europe, but not ruled by Europe is a mantra I can agree with.

It's a small step from European Union to Union of Europe.
Get out whilst we still can. It's going to be difficult I know, but out we should go.

We never have been ruled by Europe and never will be unless we agree to be and that won't happen.
But you're willing to see the country go down the tubes because the think there's even the slightest chance we could possibly agree to something that we know we won't!
INCREDIBLE!!
I hate to remind you of this but you did say on this thread of foreigners "there's too many of them here"


Are there too many Lancastrians in Cornwall? Wot about Geordies in Wales!? :-)

I believe that those who wish to depart from membership of an EU group of mutual helpers should be made to go the whole hawg. Let them be a nation of one - individuals who must, on a minute by minute basis, negotiate for various helps, rather than get them automatically as a member of, say, the UK.

So, a thug wallops such a lad in his ear and makes off with his bike. First the individual national of Alshire or Mickmany must negotiate with the local highway authority concerning use of the pavements to walk to the polis station or the hospital. Assuming the negotiation is successful, they must then negotiate for the polis or health services. As they are independent nations of one, there will be no prior arrangement and the costs may be high (or the services basic). Perhaps the polis and the nurses will frown at the foreigners and send them to the immigration department. It happens to WIndrushers.

Perhaps there will need to be a process to negotiate access across the various domains of other individual nations of one? Just think of all the borders one would have to stop at; all the visa one would have to apply for; the many fees and charges for all this. It might take months to go on a bike ride then get home.

But, hey, Al & Mick will be able to make their own decisions about every little thing. No dang "other" telling THEM what to do!

Cugel

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Remainers Angst thread

Postby al_yrpal » 8 Oct 2019, 6:52pm

My 'snide' laugh, as you put it, was in response to a snide laugh from one of your Remainer mates. Personally I am happy to pay a bit more for a chicken, most chickens are raised in inhumane conditions. All this intergenerational rubbish is just.....rubbish. As everyone gets older their views change, a well known fact. You can claim someone is robbing someone else of something but the truth is we all pursue the conclusion we believe in. I believe in exiting the EU like the clear majority who voted for it.

Al
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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 8 Oct 2019, 6:58pm

Mick F wrote:(snip)
R2.
We are ruled by the EU.
They make laws and regulations that we must abide by.


Same with those dang Eton-ers and similar up in that London, old matelot. I have come to feel that if you and me are the "we" of Blighty, those Eton-ers et all are most definitely the "they". The rascals don't do me you or anyone but themselves any favours. No. Their laws and regulations (or lack of them)are more for hedge fund managers than for the many peasants too not-rich to go to Eton.

Mick F wrote:There are two many foreigners here. No objection to them personally.
There's too many people in UK be them home-grown or incomers.


Only two foreigners? I thought there was at least ten. :-)

No objection to them personally, you say, as you urge the immigration heavies to throw them back to places where they can be tortured and killed. Or deprive long-standing EU citizens who are "other" than from Blighty to give up their jobs and families. Nothing personal in that, eh?

Cugel, often amazed at the tightness of your blinkers.