Critical Mass and the law on Radio 4 this Tuesday
Critical Mass and the law on Radio 4 this Tuesday
Law in Action's look at the Critical Mass bike ride is on BBC Radio 4, Tuesday 14 October at 1600 BST
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7667183.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7667183.stm
London CM was unpoliced last month. And there have been some murmors about that a curious incident with a CMer, who was taking photographs, may have been plain clothes/agent provocateurs at work.
All slightly fishy.
Now this piece on the 'independent' (but govt. funded) Beeb.
All slightly fishy.
Now this piece on the 'independent' (but govt. funded) Beeb.
All the tired horses in the sun,
How am I s'posed to get
Any riding done?
How am I s'posed to get
Any riding done?
Thanks for the link, I've posted it in the red light jumper CM thread in 'on the road' too.
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=17477&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=17477&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Skully wrote:London CM was unpoliced last month. And there have been some murmors about that a curious incident with a CMer, who was taking photographs, may have been plain clothes/agent provocateurs at work.
All slightly fishy.
Now this piece on the 'independent' (but govt. funded) Beeb.
Hmm.
The thing that really starts the alarm bells ringing is that somebody from the secret services or whatever has been taking photographs but then the BBC make a radio programme.
- bikely-challenged
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- Location: Argyll & Bute
Surely the BBC is mostly funded by us, the license payers rather than the Government?
I think the Govt. only contribute to the World Service. (the Govt., btw, just spend what they take from us, so it's our money being spent yet again).
Until my partner started his own business I never realised that it's only Joe Public who actually pays VAT. Businesses claim back the VAT that they pay and collect it from us to give to the Govt.
I've often wondered exactly how much tax the average bod pays when you add up VAT, Council Tax, Inland Revenue, Fuel, Fags, Booze etc.
If you have any money left over after paying all this and you put it in a savings account they'll tax the interest!
Sorry to go OT again, but anything to do with the parasitic BBC raises my blood pressure.
I think the Govt. only contribute to the World Service. (the Govt., btw, just spend what they take from us, so it's our money being spent yet again).
Until my partner started his own business I never realised that it's only Joe Public who actually pays VAT. Businesses claim back the VAT that they pay and collect it from us to give to the Govt.
I've often wondered exactly how much tax the average bod pays when you add up VAT, Council Tax, Inland Revenue, Fuel, Fags, Booze etc.
If you have any money left over after paying all this and you put it in a savings account they'll tax the interest!
Sorry to go OT again, but anything to do with the parasitic BBC raises my blood pressure.
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DISCLAIMER: The above constitutes my personal opinion only on any given subject. Other opinions are available.
DISCLAIMER: The above constitutes my personal opinion only on any given subject. Other opinions are available.
bikely-challenged wrote:Surely the BBC is mostly funded by us, the license payers rather than the Government?
I think the Govt. only contribute to the World Service. (the Govt., btw, just spend what they take from us, so it's our money being spent yet again).
Until my partner started his own business I never realised that it's only Joe Public who actually pays VAT. Businesses claim back the VAT that they pay and collect it from us to give to the Govt.
I've often wondered exactly how much tax the average bod pays when you add up VAT, Council Tax, Inland Revenue, Fuel, Fags, Booze etc.
If you have any money left over after paying all this and you put it in a savings account they'll tax the interest!
Sorry to go OT again, but anything to do with the parasitic BBC raises my blood pressure.
I can't get Taxman - The Beatles out of my head now.
but then there is always cash ISA's for your savings!
BBC and the Government!? Conspiracy!!! Black helicopters...
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Another suspicious thing.Looks friendly enough but I've just noticed that that overweight uniform sergeant on a mountain bike is a certain Detective Boyle in a cunning disguise.
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- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
I'd not call myself a fan of CM but I hope the House of Lords allows the appeal.
The 1986 legislation was actually introduced by the Thatcher government largely as a cost-saving measure, which as a side-effect involved a bit of police welfare.
Ever since the days of Sir Bob Peel and Messrs Rowan and Mayne (the first Commissioners of the Met) one of the things that inspired the G&S ditty* was rest days being cancelled or changed at very short notice. Once upon a time, at the slightest whiff of trouble or if there was a murder, rest days were cancelled or rearranged at the drop of a hat and people ended up sitting about on standby, 'just in case.' In the early seventies, conditions of service were changed to give quite substantial recompense when this happened so it suddenly stopped. This was not a burst of generosity from the Home Office. Police wastage was so bad they risked having none left if pay and conditions were not improved. At the time it was not such a big deal because most events needing a lot of personnel such as soccer matches, general election meetings (National Front demos) were known about some time in advance.
Anyway, along came Thatcher and it was demonstrations, strikes etc., all the time. Of course, some of this was countered by a lot of anti-union legislation but Thatcher would not let K Clarke etc., worsen police conditions of service (well, not much, anyway. I had that info from none less than Parris.) So, the 1986 legislation was part of a move to cut costs by allowing planning for demos etc., and the cancellation of police rest days with more notice and therefore less expense.
Now, whatever the points argued by m'learned friends next week before their Lordships, the whole point of CM is that you know it's coming, although nobody can say how big it will be on a particular day (partly, I suspect, because nobody can predict the weather more than a few hours in advance - and that's if you are lucky.) If you know it's coming, you can plan the staffing. The unpredictable route must make sensible deployment more difficult but that really was not the point of the legislation.
It seems sad that through all the Thatcher years CM was never seen as a big deal but under a government with so many who were once civil rights campaigners this should go to the House of Lords. I nearly said 'end up' but there is still the possibility that it will end up with the European Court once again telling the UK Govt to stop being silly.
* A policeman's lot is not ...
The 1986 legislation was actually introduced by the Thatcher government largely as a cost-saving measure, which as a side-effect involved a bit of police welfare.
Ever since the days of Sir Bob Peel and Messrs Rowan and Mayne (the first Commissioners of the Met) one of the things that inspired the G&S ditty* was rest days being cancelled or changed at very short notice. Once upon a time, at the slightest whiff of trouble or if there was a murder, rest days were cancelled or rearranged at the drop of a hat and people ended up sitting about on standby, 'just in case.' In the early seventies, conditions of service were changed to give quite substantial recompense when this happened so it suddenly stopped. This was not a burst of generosity from the Home Office. Police wastage was so bad they risked having none left if pay and conditions were not improved. At the time it was not such a big deal because most events needing a lot of personnel such as soccer matches, general election meetings (National Front demos) were known about some time in advance.
Anyway, along came Thatcher and it was demonstrations, strikes etc., all the time. Of course, some of this was countered by a lot of anti-union legislation but Thatcher would not let K Clarke etc., worsen police conditions of service (well, not much, anyway. I had that info from none less than Parris.) So, the 1986 legislation was part of a move to cut costs by allowing planning for demos etc., and the cancellation of police rest days with more notice and therefore less expense.
Now, whatever the points argued by m'learned friends next week before their Lordships, the whole point of CM is that you know it's coming, although nobody can say how big it will be on a particular day (partly, I suspect, because nobody can predict the weather more than a few hours in advance - and that's if you are lucky.) If you know it's coming, you can plan the staffing. The unpredictable route must make sensible deployment more difficult but that really was not the point of the legislation.
It seems sad that through all the Thatcher years CM was never seen as a big deal but under a government with so many who were once civil rights campaigners this should go to the House of Lords. I nearly said 'end up' but there is still the possibility that it will end up with the European Court once again telling the UK Govt to stop being silly.
* A policeman's lot is not ...
- 7_lives_left
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- Location: South Bucks
I enjoyed listening to the program. If the house of Lords ruling is going to be given out
in the next few days, as was indicated in the program, this month's ride might be an
interesting one to attend, whichever way the ruling goes (hopefully in favor of Critical Mass).
Now, donning my tin foil hat while looking for black helicopters, if no police cyclists
turned up last month, while ordinarily they would turn up as unpaid, off duty volunteers,
as discussed in another thread, does that mean they were given instructions to stay away?
I actually tried to attend last months ride (only the second time I have done so), but I was late
getting to the South Bank so I missed the start. It is hopeless trying to find the ride once they
have set off. Actually there were police cyclists out that night because I remember passing a
group of about six of them waiting by the Centrepoint building near Totenhamcourt Road
tube station. I did think about asking them if they knew the ware abouts of the ride, but
thought better of it because 1) they might think I was taking the mick, and 2) they might
have no more idea than me where the ride was. It could be that they were on duty and had
nothing to do with the Critical Mass ride.
in the next few days, as was indicated in the program, this month's ride might be an
interesting one to attend, whichever way the ruling goes (hopefully in favor of Critical Mass).
Now, donning my tin foil hat while looking for black helicopters, if no police cyclists
turned up last month, while ordinarily they would turn up as unpaid, off duty volunteers,
as discussed in another thread, does that mean they were given instructions to stay away?
I actually tried to attend last months ride (only the second time I have done so), but I was late
getting to the South Bank so I missed the start. It is hopeless trying to find the ride once they
have set off. Actually there were police cyclists out that night because I remember passing a
group of about six of them waiting by the Centrepoint building near Totenhamcourt Road
tube station. I did think about asking them if they knew the ware abouts of the ride, but
thought better of it because 1) they might think I was taking the mick, and 2) they might
have no more idea than me where the ride was. It could be that they were on duty and had
nothing to do with the Critical Mass ride.
- Ben Lovejoy
- Posts: 1170
- Joined: 26 Oct 2007, 9:47pm
- Location: London/Essex
- Contact:
Even assuming the police won the case, what exactly would it achieve?
My understanding from the R4 piece is that there is nothing illegal about being on the ride, only being an organiser of it. Since there are no organisers, who are they going to prosecute?
Ben
My understanding from the R4 piece is that there is nothing illegal about being on the ride, only being an organiser of it. Since there are no organisers, who are they going to prosecute?
Ben
TRICE Q with Streamer fairing for the fun stuff
Brompton M3L for the commutery stuff
LEJOG blog: http://www.benlovejoy.com/cycle/tripreports/lejog/
Brompton M3L for the commutery stuff
LEJOG blog: http://www.benlovejoy.com/cycle/tripreports/lejog/
Skully wrote:London CM was unpoliced last month. And there have been some murmors about that a curious incident with a CMer, who was taking photographs, may have been plain clothes/agent provocateurs at work.
All slightly fishy.
Now this piece on the 'independent' (but govt. funded) Beeb.
Don't you mean publicly funded?
Gazza
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thirdcrank wrote:
It seems sad that through all the Thatcher years CM was never seen as a big deal but under a government with so many who were once civil rights campaigners this should go to the House of Lords.....
Also, many in this government spent their early / student political careers affiliated with communist groups - so perhaps it's not surprising that we now live in a big brother society!