** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 23 Oct 2019, 11:52am

mercalia wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
mjr wrote:Oh it has to be Devil's Ditch, surely? Reach to Woodditton in Cambridgeshire. It already contains <i>[rude word removed]</i> toadflax so...

The trouble with censorship: one's mind can insert something far filthier.

I'm having fun adding every disgusting word I can think of to the front of toadflax.


maybe set up a petition that he should keep to his word, get to 100,000 is it and get it debated in parliament?

https://petition.parliament.uk/

I am tempted but I dont want the Secret Service visiting me

does any one have the reference where he said it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEochKffA4A is a clip. The full speech and Q&A is available on there from multiple sources but without transcript and it's rather rambling.
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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 23 Oct 2019, 11:55am

PDQ Mobile wrote:So his rock and a hard place, completely of his own making, is significant and unavoidable.



I would question that. Membership fo the EU has been rumbling away as a political question ever since we joined. Nigel Farage and a sharp increase in European immigation brought it to the boil. Johnson's response is of course of his own making (and thus the position he finds himself in) but he didn't create the underlying circumstances (IMV).
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 23 Oct 2019, 11:57am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
horizon wrote:
Psamathe wrote:An underlying concern about what is happening in Westminster is how it is illustrating how stupid our PM is, how he is totally unable to see a way through anything. His bill got passed but anybody with a half functioning brian cell would have seen that Parliament was going to be unhappy about it being pushed through with minimal scrutiny. So his timetable motion always was going to fail. So rather than keeping his foot on the accelerator whilst steering at the wall, why not set a more realistic schedule and get it passed?

Ian


That presupposes that (a) Boris is unintelligent (he got to be prime minister) and (b) he wants his Brexit bill passed. My surmise is that neither is true. He wants to be prime minister and for a lot longer yet and with a sense of Churchillian accomplishment. He has correctly (IMV) surmised that the British people are by nature not impatient but want black and white clarity in their lives. That is what he offers. And he has won enormous sympathy and support for banging his head against a brick wall. And he has also won my admiration for his political cleverness. Of course, the only problem for the intelligent and clever Boris is that there are equally (and perhaps even more so) clever and intelligent people in Parliament (Dominic Grieve, Hilary Benn, Oliver Letwin and a few others) who can frustrate his purpose. But he still has his eye on the election.

While all that may be true it (sort of) overlooks the fact that Boris campaigned for Leave.
He is a finished politian if that aim is not achieved.
And he is a finished politician with around half the electorate if it is.
So his rock and a hard place, completely of his own making, is significant and unavoidable.

The only course he has is to steer as he has done, but a deal of it is just pretty empty rhetoric.

I personally think he is a terrified of a hard Brexit as are many others who see the consequences.
He is in possession of the facts( of hard Brexit) and he is (rightly) aware of who will carry the lion's share of the blame.
That that blame can be justly and properly laid at his door is without question.

I think there is a middle ground that honours the referendum and does not ignore those voting remain. e.g. Norway solution (as suggested by Farage speaking before the referendum
Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing

The mistake these Conservative leaders are making is leaping into the arms of the ERG. ERG are a small group but were they to go somewhere that does not ignore either remain or leave and whilst they might not have the support of the ERG, they would likely have the support of most Conservatives, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, Green, etc. And, they would probably not alienate half the electorate in the next election. And they would create less damage to the UK jobs and economy. And it would be honouring the result of the referendum. And it would be repairing the splits in our society.

But it seems like having the support of a few like Rees-Mogg, Peter Bone, Bernard Jenkin, IDS & Gove is more important than the rest of the country put together. There is something very wrong with our society.

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 23 Oct 2019, 11:59am

horizon wrote:
pete75 wrote:What he has in his favour and has correctly surmised is his brand of right wing populism appeals to a large part of the UK electorate.


What he has also correctly surmised (IMV) is that for the Conservative party to survive as other than a reduced rump in Parliament it must capture this part of the electorate before it moved off to the Brexit party. The alternative (moving towards the centre) probably isn't a goer. By pretending to save the country he is in truth saving the Conservative party. Whether one thinks that is a worthy cause or not (and justifies Brexit) is another matter.

That's a charitable version.

The scary version is that Dominic Cummings seems to be lining things up for an election campaign based on "people versus parliament" because "they're blocking Brexit" and thereby getting a mandate to empower the cabinet and curtail the powers of Parliament. Why else would they have tried to ram the most wide-reaching post-war legislation through in just over a week? That was always very likely to fail.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 23 Oct 2019, 12:03pm

horizon wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:So his rock and a hard place, completely of his own making, is significant and unavoidable.



I would question that. Membership fo the EU has been rumbling away as a political question ever since we joined. Nigel Farage and a sharp increase in European immigation brought it to the boil. Johnson's response is of course of his own making (and thus the position he finds himself in) but he didn't create the underlying circumstances (IMV).

Is that so? I've seen research (could be rubbish) showing how little the public was bothered about the EU, right up until the referendum was called. Rather than any unhappiness with the EU, might other factors not have been more important? i.e. general austerity-led misery and a concerted media campaign.

Until the referendum was called, outright hostility to the EU was restricted to a small band of loons, an even smaller band of principled objectors, and a handful of tax-dodging press barons.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 23 Oct 2019, 12:19pm

horizon wrote:
pete75 wrote:Not correct.
A bike space can be reserved online when you book your tickets on the website. Using the GWR website you can even reserve bike spaces online for travel with other rail companies like LNER which do not have the facility on their own sites.


I buy my tickets on the train (the local station is unmanned). I don't need to buy them in advance except to get my bicycle on the train. That means buying them on-line and for this I allow 2 - 3 days. If the two bike spaces (unlike the 700 or so allocated to non-cyclists) are already booked, I'm unable to leave Cornwall.

This isn't in the Withdrawal Agreement Bill by the way. :wink:


I'm sure there are road as well as rail connections to Cornwall. Is it not possible to ride a bicycle out of the county.
Buying tickets online works in real time and you can pick them up from a station ticket machine straightaway or ven print them off from a PC or get them electronically on a phone app.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 23 Oct 2019, 12:25pm

mercalia wrote:Does anyone know of any good ditches to email to Boris? I wonder if any one will offer any to him eg in parliament now that would be worth watching? :lol:


Who will rid us of this turbulent beast?

One can only hope that some politician-knights will emerge who can skewer (metaphorically speaking) the rascally klown at the next election. But the electorate seems to be threaded through and through with Richard Braines, eager to vote for the turbulent piffl;er despite this meaning the sealing of their fate as future victims of his "UK disappears up its own fundamental orifice" spectacle.

One could almost wish for the old fashioned process for ridding the realm of a turbulent beast. But this would be a naughty thought best put back in the history-box. On the other hand, The BoJo itself offered to die in that ditch should his cunning plan fail...... But of course he lies about everything, eh. Also, think of the stink.

Cugel, desperately hoping for a Tory rout.

PS If the BoJo should fail in his ambitions to be World King and instead become just another briefly-PM Tory stabbing-boy of the 1922 committee, what will he become in the future? Will anyone want to read his piffle-paffles in The Torygraph or Spectatory? Perhaps he should just be gaoled and forgotten. Do they still have dungeons under The Tower?

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 23 Oct 2019, 12:29pm

bovlomov wrote:
horizon wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:So his rock and a hard place, completely of his own making, is significant and unavoidable.



I would question that. Membership fo the EU has been rumbling away as a political question ever since we joined. Nigel Farage and a sharp increase in European immigation brought it to the boil. Johnson's response is of course of his own making (and thus the position he finds himself in) but he didn't create the underlying circumstances (IMV).

Is that so? I've seen research (could be rubbish) showing how little the public was bothered about the EU, right up until the referendum was called. Rather than any unhappiness with the EU, might other factors not have been more important? i.e. general austerity-led misery and a concerted media campaign.

Until the referendum was called, outright hostility to the EU was restricted to a small band of loons, an even smaller band of principled objectors, and a handful of tax-dodging press barons.

I agree (and have read similar). The UK public was not crying-out for a referendum. Farange was no real threat to the Conservatives (except a few incompetent entitled MPs with lucrative expense accounts got scared). There were moans about "taking our jobs" and "burden on the NHS" but facts were that it was the Conservatives causing those issues through austerity rather than people from other EU member states and it would only have taken a bit of investment and release a few reports. Plus, there will always be a small group of the population seeking somebody else to blame for their own problems (I wonder if after ending Freedom of Movement we might start seeing more blame being passed to other ethnic groups distinguished by appearance).

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 23 Oct 2019, 12:41pm

bovlomov wrote:Is that so? I've seen research (could be rubbish) showing how little the public was bothered about the EU, right up until the referendum was called.


I'm sure that's true. But although I haven't checked the statistics, I think the Referendum party was biting at the heels of the Conservative party right through the first Cameron government - that's why he agreed to the referendum (with the expectation that the Lib Dems as coalition partners would block it).

I think the EU was just an unpleasant fact of life for most people - until asked. Let's have another referendum: do you think the UK should continue to be rainy, cold and wet? Well, I for one would be happy to put money on the outcome.

The answer to "How did we get to where we are?" is a complex one in which Boris Johnson played a key role but it really isn't (IMV) all his own doing.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 23 Oct 2019, 12:48pm

bovlomov wrote:
horizon wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:So his rock and a hard place, completely of his own making, is significant and unavoidable.



I would question that. Membership fo the EU has been rumbling away as a political question ever since we joined. Nigel Farage and a sharp increase in European immigation brought it to the boil. Johnson's response is of course of his own making (and thus the position he finds himself in) but he didn't create the underlying circumstances (IMV).

Is that so? I've seen research (could be rubbish) showing how little the public was bothered about the EU, right up until the referendum was called. Rather than any unhappiness with the EU, might other factors not have been more important? i.e. general austerity-led misery and a concerted media campaign.

Until the referendum was called, outright hostility to the EU was restricted to a small band of loons, an even smaller band of principled objectors, and a handful of tax-dodging press barons.


A succinct and, I feel, accurate identification of the prime causes operating in this Brexit madness.

We would all like to support the notion that democracy is the least-worst of all forms of government because it often extracts "the will of the people". In practice, modern mass media means that it's more often the will of the powerful operators of the mass media that dominates. Sad to say, humans are very herd-like so if a Big Bull appears to lead the charge "this way" most will follow. The more that follow, the more join in, right over the cliff.

I've been utterly dismayed to observe the power of the mass media on people's minds. It always had a huge ability to construct all of our minds - but I'd always assumed that if the constructions were obviously ramshackle or toxic, the average British readers would notice and reject them. Instead, the readers have lost all other aspects of their cultural references and now have nothing but the toxic ramshackles of newspap mache in which to live their mental lives.

Mass media is a curse, especially when its owned (as it was always going to be) by those obsessed with power at any cost. Goebbels was right - Big Lies, repeated often enough, will convince anyone and eventually everyone.

Cugel

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 23 Oct 2019, 12:50pm

pete75 wrote:
I'm sure there are road as well as rail connections to Cornwall. Is it not possible to ride a bicycle out of the county.
Buying tickets online works in real time and you can pick them up from a station ticket machine straightaway or ven print them off from a PC or get them electronically on a phone app.


For those who don't wish to or cannot drive, the railway is the way out of Cornwall. Our local buses and long distance coaches do not take bicycles. Faced with a thirty or forty mile ride over the worst hills in Britain, it might not be practical to ride every time though it might be a means of escape for the hardy. AFAIK not even Boris' bill is recommending that. While there are no checks (as yet) on the Tamar bridge, neither are there facilities for refreshment.

NB Cycle spaces are not available on ticket machines and our local station does not in any case have one (like most local stations in Cornwall).
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 23 Oct 2019, 1:06pm

bovlomov wrote:Is that so? I've seen research (could be rubbish) showing how little the public was bothered about the EU, right up until the referendum was called. Rather than any unhappiness with the EU, might other factors not have been more important? i.e. general austerity-led misery and a concerted media campaign.

Until the referendum was called, outright hostility to the EU was restricted to a small band of loons, an even smaller band of principled objectors, and a handful of tax-dodging press barons.

Luckily, it is quite easy to find data from several different organisations with information about attitudes to the EU.
http://www.snapshotsfromtheborders.eu/w ... r-2018.pdf
In 18 EU countries this view remained stable or improved; to its largest extent of both +7 points in Sweden (73%) and the United Kingdom (60%). While this increase in the UK it worth noting on its own, it is equally interesting to see that the British share of “don’t know” answers has been decreasing significantly on this question, possibly indicating that more and more people express an opinion on whether or not their country has benefited from its EU membership. Potentially asked for the last time on this topic in a Eurobarometer survey, the share for “don’t know” dropped by 9 points in the UK to 10%. 30% (+2) of British respondents consider that their country has not benefited from the EU. This is amongst the highest scores
for the negative view among all EU Member States, together with Romania (30%, +7 for ‘not benefited’) and following Austria (31%, -7), Cyprus (37%, -3), Greece (40%, +3) and Italy (45%, +4).


https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/pu ... 318_en.pdf is quite detailed, but I suppose, since these were commissioned by the EU, folks could say it is biased.

The Pew research center have also looked at attitudes toward & knowledge about the EU https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019 ... ean-union/

If you look at the whole report, you can see that they found slightly different results. The latest report was issued last week and says:
more than a quarter (28%) say their country’s membership in the EU has been a bad thing, the highest negative measure on this issue of all countries surveyed. This negative view is more prominent among Britons in rural and suburban areas (34% and 30%, respectively) than with those in UK cities (14%). British people ages 60 and older are more than three times as negative as those ages 18 to 34 about EU membership (37% bad vs. 11%). Likewise, those in the UK with less education are more likely to feel EU membership has set their country back.

Yet 48% percent of Britons said that membership in the EU has benefited their country, and 25% are unsure or don't know.

These surveys go back to the early days of the EU, if anyone is interested. https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/pu ... b42_en.pdf was released in 1994, though it has been updated with an editorial to set some things in perspective.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 23 Oct 2019, 1:14pm

horizon wrote:
NB Cycle spaces are not available on ticket machines and our local station does not in any case have one (like most local stations in Cornwall).

The ticket machines will print the cycle reservations you've ordered online. The easiest way for you would be to use the GWR phone app which holds tickets electronically or print the ticket from a computer when you make the reservation.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 23 Oct 2019, 1:48pm

horizon wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Is that so? I've seen research (could be rubbish) showing how little the public was bothered about the EU, right up until the referendum was called.


I'm sure that's true. But although I haven't checked the statistics, I think the Referendum party was biting at the heels of the Conservative party right through the first Cameron government - that's why he agreed to the referendum (with the expectation that the Lib Dems as coalition partners would block it).

Referendum Party existed 1994-1997 and first Cameron government 2010-2015. Which of them had the time machine?

The answer to "How did we get to where we are?" is a complex one in which Boris Johnson played a key role but it really isn't (IMV) all his own doing.

I understand that a lot of foreign social media bots meeting an entirely-too-trusting British public kept gullible to sell tabloid newspapers have quite a lot to do with it.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 23 Oct 2019, 2:21pm

Psamathe wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:
Al, you are quite correct about a fair percentage of the Lotus Eaters from Albion, they set up little Britain Enclaves, avoid both learning the language & meeting the natives! I say this from sure knowledge because my brother is on of the ilk. But at least he & his wife have taken out Spanish citizenship, although the still belly-ache about prescription costs in their bolt hole.Al, you are quite correct about a fair percentage of the Lotus Eaters from Albion, they set up little Britain Enclaves, avoid both learning the language & meeting the natives! I say this from sure knowledge because my brother is on of the ilk. But at least he & his wife have taken out Spanish citizenship, although the still belly-ache about prescription costs in their bolt hole.


I was shocked to arrive at a Brit b&b place near Fleurance on Bastile Day and discover our hosts werent going to go into town and enjoy joining in the celebrations? We did. The next morning then having to accompany them to the Bricolage to translate! Lived in France for years yet totally isolated in a little Brit bubble. Wine boxes abounded... We often stayed at various friends French bolt holes and observed the same sort of behaviour. Sorry, cant feel sympathy for such folk.

Al

Nothing beats a nice bit of stereotyping on a Wed morning.

My own experience is totally different, completely the opposite end of the spectrum.

Ian


Your stereotype, my stereotype...but in my experience mine is nearer the norm, reinforced by various TV documentries and comedys which parody the many booze swilling sunshine seeking Brits in France and Spain who hardly engage with local culture at all.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?