Helmets in Spain

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Ivor Tingting
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Ivor Tingting » 26 Oct 2019, 5:46pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Ivor Tingting wrote:I refer you to the OP's title and question.

Re: Helmets in Spain



The real world position is being worn on your head as with cycling anywhere in the world. When in Rome as they say. If you wear a helmet anyway there is not an issue. I come from personal choice of self preservation. There is no way I would want the awkward situation of being in a country where I couldn't speak the language, my Spanish is very poor, of having to pay an on the spot fine of unknown quantity should I be stopped by an over zealous copper and his friend for not wearing one. I should imagine any on the spot fine would easily exceed the cost of a basic cycle helmet. But each to their own.


Yes, the O.P. asked about the enforcement position, not about efficacy, as I understand it. Certainly responders seemed to think so.
I am not clear what your first sentence means.
Clearly if you are going to be fined for not wearing, a helmet is a good idea. I would count a helmet law as a minus in deciding on a holiday tour.
You seemed to feel the need to go further in helmet advocacy than informing about the likelihood of getting pinched.

As you admitted, advocacy belongs in the helmet ghetto.


What is the helmet ghetto? Re-read what the OP originally asked which is what I quoted for your convenience above. No mention of enforcement, YOU have assumed this. Ok it can be implied but also so can other important issues such as what the Spanish law states on wearing or not wearing a cycling helmet and the practical side difficulties if caught riding without a cycle helmet. I believe the law says you must wear a helmet. Obviously if you don't you run the risk of being fined. As I say those who wear a helmet it's non issue, but the OP indicates he won't and his subsequent post is,

further wrote:Thank you all,don't think I will bother wearing one,I have never worn one in the UK


And then,

further wrote:I must admit i hadn't thought about the insurance thing Mmmmm


You seem to be the one fixated on efficacy.

It is raised by oldun in the context of insurance. Why don't you have a go at him? Why are you singling me out? Every one else makes out they don't wear one, a cap instead, so why am I not allowed to say I do and therefore it has not been an issue for me in the past meaning it's a non issue? Just comply with the rules of the country you are visiting. Then you have no worries. When in Rome. Simples.

oldun wrote::lol:
mattheus wrote:The helmet would make the same amount of difference as it does in a country where they *aren't* required. So there are very few situations where the insurer could wriggle out of paying much of your claim.
Your choice though - your head!



I wonder if a claim would be paid in full if a non seat belt wearing car driver was involved in an accident were the injuries would have been less severe had he/she been wearing a seat belt . I know insurance companies never try to wriggle out of paying claims , but you never know do you ?.....it could happen .
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

Mike Sales
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Mike Sales » 26 Oct 2019, 6:02pm

Ivor Tingting wrote: Twice now I have commented on this thread in support of wearing a helmet which makes this thread irrelevant but each attempt my comment has subsequently been REMOVED. Nasty. Third time lucky. I suspect the Spanish paramedics are no different to Uk ones who when they arrive to help you when you are lying injured in the road, the first thing they are ask is "Have you hit your head? Good to see you wearing a helmet!" I know, as twice it has happened to me and on both occasions I was asked this and a helmet saved my head from injury. When I have toured in the Picos Northern Spain I have always worn a helmet and experienced no problems.


This sounds like advocacy to me.

Click upon Board Index and then Campaigning and Public Policy and you will find the Helmet Sub Forum.

I confess to missing Molly's helmet promotion. I have been away.

Discussing insurance questions is not advocacy.

If you take a look at this article about the situation in Australia (where helmet mandation has not reduced casualty rates you may understand my dislike of helmet pushing.

https://road.cc/content/news/268038-australias-mandatory-helmet-laws-have-become-tool-disproportionate-penalties-and

“A person who drives in a dedicated bicycle lane faces a A$191 penalty. A cyclist will be slugged almost twice as much for riding in that same lane without a helmet.”


The fines are “a terrific little earner” for the NSW government, they say. “From 2016-2019, 17,560 penalty notices worth almost A$6 million were issued to cyclists. Over the same period only 95 fines were handed out to drivers for unsafe passing.”


Fines have also risen considerably in some areas. In New South Wales (NSW) the offence once carried a fine of A$73, but in March 2016 this was increased by 445% to A$325.
A year later, we reported how the change had also coincided with a sharp rise in the numbers being fined. Failure to wear a cycling helmet is currently the most-commonly issued on-the-spot fine in the state.
The fine is out of step with penalties for other, more serious offences, argue Quilter and Hogg. “In NSW, only when car drivers exceed the speed limit by more than 20km/h does the fine exceed the A$344 for failing to wear a helmet.

Ivor Tingting
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Ivor Tingting » 26 Oct 2019, 6:30pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Ivor Tingting wrote: Twice now I have commented on this thread in support of wearing a helmet which makes this thread irrelevant but each attempt my comment has subsequently been REMOVED. Nasty. Third time lucky. I suspect the Spanish paramedics are no different to Uk ones who when they arrive to help you when you are lying injured in the road, the first thing they are ask is "Have you hit your head? Good to see you wearing a helmet!" I know, as twice it has happened to me and on both occasions I was asked this and a helmet saved my head from injury. When I have toured in the Picos Northern Spain I have always worn a helmet and experienced no problems.


This sounds like advocacy to me.

Click upon Board Index and then Campaigning and Public Policy and you will find the Helmet Sub Forum.

I confess to missing Molly's helmet promotion. I have been away.

Discussing insurance questions is not advocacy.

If you take a look at this article about the situation in Australia (where helmet mandation has not reduced casualty rates you may understand my dislike of helmet pushing.

https://road.cc/content/news/268038-australias-mandatory-helmet-laws-have-become-tool-disproportionate-penalties-and

“A person who drives in a dedicated bicycle lane faces a A$191 penalty. A cyclist will be slugged almost twice as much for riding in that same lane without a helmet.”


The fines are “a terrific little earner” for the NSW government, they say. “From 2016-2019, 17,560 penalty notices worth almost A$6 million were issued to cyclists. Over the same period only 95 fines were handed out to drivers for unsafe passing.”


Fines have also risen considerably in some areas. In New South Wales (NSW) the offence once carried a fine of A$73, but in March 2016 this was increased by 445% to A$325.
A year later, we reported how the change had also coincided with a sharp rise in the numbers being fined. Failure to wear a cycling helmet is currently the most-commonly issued on-the-spot fine in the state.
The fine is out of step with penalties for other, more serious offences, argue Quilter and Hogg. “In NSW, only when car drivers exceed the speed limit by more than 20km/h does the fine exceed the A$344 for failing to wear a helmet.


[moderated] All I have done is state I wear a helmet out of personal choice of self preservation. Riding in Spain it is mandatory to wear a helmet so this would be a non issue for me. Even if I didn't wear one I would get one to comply with their rules as I believe when in Rome ....... I would not want to be stopped and handing over my hard earned cash to some zealous copper and his mate who I couldn't understand. Plus the insurance aspect and debate about possible injuries with or without helmets is a valid one particularly travel insurance when touring abroad. I would rather visit a Decathlon in Spain or Narbonne and buy a cycling helmet before I started riding there.
[moderated]
Last edited by Ivor Tingting on 26 Oct 2019, 6:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

Mike Sales
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Mike Sales » 26 Oct 2019, 6:34pm

Ivor Tingting wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Ivor Tingting wrote: Twice now I have commented on this thread in support of wearing a helmet which makes this thread irrelevant but each attempt my comment has subsequently been REMOVED. Nasty. Third time lucky. I suspect the Spanish paramedics are no different to Uk ones who when they arrive to help you when you are lying injured in the road, the first thing they are ask is "Have you hit your head? Good to see you wearing a helmet!" I know, as twice it has happened to me and on both occasions I was asked this and a helmet saved my head from injury. When I have toured in the Picos Northern Spain I have always worn a helmet and experienced no problems.


This sounds like advocacy to me.

Click upon Board Index and then Campaigning and Public Policy and you will find the Helmet Sub Forum.

I confess to missing Molly's helmet promotion. I have been away.

Discussing insurance questions is not advocacy.

If you take a look at this article about the situation in Australia (where helmet mandation has not reduced casualty rates you may understand my dislike of helmet pushing.

https://road.cc/content/news/268038-australias-mandatory-helmet-laws-have-become-tool-disproportionate-penalties-and

“A person who drives in a dedicated bicycle lane faces a A$191 penalty. A cyclist will be slugged almost twice as much for riding in that same lane without a helmet.”


The fines are “a terrific little earner” for the NSW government, they say. “From 2016-2019, 17,560 penalty notices worth almost A$6 million were issued to cyclists. Over the same period only 95 fines were handed out to drivers for unsafe passing.”


Fines have also risen considerably in some areas. In New South Wales (NSW) the offence once carried a fine of A$73, but in March 2016 this was increased by 445% to A$325.
A year later, we reported how the change had also coincided with a sharp rise in the numbers being fined. Failure to wear a cycling helmet is currently the most-commonly issued on-the-spot fine in the state.
The fine is out of step with penalties for other, more serious offences, argue Quilter and Hogg. “In NSW, only when car drivers exceed the speed limit by more than 20km/h does the fine exceed the A$344 for failing to wear a helmet.


[moderated]All I have done is state I wear a helmet out of personal choice of self preservation so riding in Spain wear it IS mandatory to wear a helmet would be a non issue for me. Even if I didn't I would get one to comply with their rules as I believe when in Rome ....... I would not want to be stopped and handing over my hard earned cash to some zealous copper and his mate. I would rather do to a Decathlon in Spain or Narbonne and buy a cycling helmet before I started riding there. [moderated]


I am sorry if you feel I am picking on you.

My concern is to use facts to ward off the threat of compulsion.

I don't think posting opinions on a forum can be called bullying or a power trip.

Again, I don't want to upset you, so "basta".

Ivor Tingting
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Ivor Tingting » 26 Oct 2019, 6:41pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Ivor Tingting wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
This sounds like advocacy to me.

Click upon Board Index and then Campaigning and Public Policy and you will find the Helmet Sub Forum.

I confess to missing Molly's helmet promotion. I have been away.

Discussing insurance questions is not advocacy.

If you take a look at this article about the situation in Australia (where helmet mandation has not reduced casualty rates you may understand my dislike of helmet pushing.

https://road.cc/content/news/268038-australias-mandatory-helmet-laws-have-become-tool-disproportionate-penalties-and







[moderated] All I have done is state I wear a helmet out of personal choice of self preservation so riding in Spain wear it IS mandatory to wear a helmet would be a non issue for me. Even if I didn't I would get one to comply with their rules as I believe when in Rome ....... I would not want to be stopped and handing over my hard earned cash to some zealous copper and his mate. I would rather do to a Decathlon in Spain or Narbonne and buy a cycling helmet before I started riding there. [moderated]


I am sorry if you feel I am picking on you.

My concern is to use facts to ward off the threat of compulsion.

I don't think posting opinions on a forum can be called bullying or a power trip.

Again, I don't want to upset you, so "basta".


I do not wish to get into a helmet debate. I respect your choice not to wear one and leave it at that. I wouldn't dream of quoting stats or what ever surveys to justify my view over yours. You are just as entitled to not wear a helmet as I am to want to wear one. I do so out of personal choice how every correct or incorrect my decision making is. It is my decision. I am comfortable with it. But in Spain I believe it is compulsory to wear one. You aren't going to change this. For me as I say it is a non issue because I wear one, but if I didn't I would get one simply to comply with their rules and to avoid being stopped and fined. That is just me. I hope you would respect my view. To me it makes common sense. But I appreciate others such as you might take a contrary view. I am fine with this. Please enough.
"Zat is ze reel prowoking qwestion Mr Paxman." - Peer Steinbruck, German Finance Minister 31/03/2009.

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Graham
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Graham » 27 Oct 2019, 8:38am

This topic now moved to the Plastic Hat section, due to the inability of a certain person to avoid polluting the original question with helmet-wearing advocacy.

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mjr
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby mjr » 27 Oct 2019, 10:38am

Graham wrote:This topic now moved to the Plastic Hat section, due to the inability of a certain person to avoid polluting the original question with helmet-wearing advocacy.

Congratulations, helmet nutters!

In that case:
molly wrote:[...] I have to speak up for wearing helmets because of personal experience. My helmet has prevented me having serious head injury on two occasions and almost certainly saved my life on another.

Prove it.

I mean, three head-KSI collisions in 12 years (Catlike Whisper introduced 2006 for pros, on UK sale a year later) is a shockingly high rate for any non-pro-racer rider, so it seems very improbable. If that is accurate, have you considered a Bikeability level 3 refresher? A helmet only protects the top of your head, after all, and a serious injury to certain body parts can kill even more easily.

The most serious incident did not involve traffic either just a dog on a badly managed extending lead!

Helmets are not designed or tested for collisions, even with dog leads!

I have been cycling in Spain several times a year for at least 10 years now and always wear a helmet. The helmet I wear is so light and airy that I hardly know I have it on. It is the same make and model that I had on when involved in the worst accident. Admittedly it was badly damaged but I have great faith in the brand(.. and before anyone asks it was a catlike whisper)

I think if you can't tell you've 250g strapped on top of your head, then that's very rare. And £100 every 3 years is a bit of an annoying extra cost, even if that's cheaper than when it was a new model.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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further
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby further » 28 Oct 2019, 6:36pm

Sorry I asked now.
C

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Cyril Haearn » 28 Oct 2019, 7:06pm

further wrote:Sorry I asked now.
C

Don't be sorry, you can learn a lot from people who have other views
I am against Helmuts and compulsion but I think many fora members are for them, they just don't bother arguing against the opinionated opponents

Alternative facts welcome
Nice one Cyrille, nice one son..
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on 49" fixed
We love safety cameras, we love life "1330"

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Mick F
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Mick F » 28 Oct 2019, 9:05pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:Alternative facts welcome
That's the problem.
There are no facts.

We, as a human race, have been cycling since well before the turn of the 20th century.
I started riding a two-wheel bike as late as 1956 or so. Prior to that, I was on three wheels. :wink:

Ridden a bike since 1956.
Wore a helmet from 2005? to 2015 and then not. Helmet is now disposed of, never to bother again.
Waste of time and money and without any benefit at all.

I've seen the light.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Antan1 » 28 Oct 2019, 10:24pm

The helmet and high vis argument will always be around. People have the right to decide on the risks involved either way.
Personally I always wear both after seeing first hand the outcome of head injurys and the profound effect it can have on families.
Rob
Cannondale SL4 MTB. Trek Checkpoint ALR5

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Mick F
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby Mick F » 30 Oct 2019, 9:44am

molly wrote:This is a comment not a judgement as I do believe people should have a choice on whether to wear a helmet or not however I have to speak up for wearing helmets because of personal experience. My helmet has prevented me having serious head injury on two occasions and almost certainly saved my life on another. The most serious incident did not involve traffic either just a dog on a badly managed extending lead!
I have been cycling in Spain several times a year for at least 10 years now and always wear a helmet. The helmet I wear is so light and airy that I hardly know I have it on. It is the same make and model that I had on when involved in the worst accident. Admittedly it was badly damaged but I have great faith in the brand(.. and before anyone asks it was a catlike whisper)
If your helmet is so comfortable and light, and you hardly know you you have it on ................. do you wear it in a car?

You are far more likely to have a head injury as a car occupant than as a cyclist.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby mjr » 30 Oct 2019, 11:43am

Antan1 wrote:The helmet and high vis argument will always be around. People have the right to decide on the risks involved either way.
Personally I always wear both after seeing first hand the outcome of head injurys and the profound effect it can have on families.

Maybe - the supposed increase risk-taking of helmet users is a public safety matter too.

Also, you may change your mind when you experience first hand a head or neck injury mainly caused by usage.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby rfryer » 30 Oct 2019, 11:50am

Mick F wrote:
molly wrote:This is a comment not a judgement as I do believe people should have a choice on whether to wear a helmet or not however I have to speak up for wearing helmets because of personal experience. My helmet has prevented me having serious head injury on two occasions and almost certainly saved my life on another. The most serious incident did not involve traffic either just a dog on a badly managed extending lead!
I have been cycling in Spain several times a year for at least 10 years now and always wear a helmet. The helmet I wear is so light and airy that I hardly know I have it on. It is the same make and model that I had on when involved in the worst accident. Admittedly it was badly damaged but I have great faith in the brand(.. and before anyone asks it was a catlike whisper)
If your helmet is so comfortable and light, and you hardly know you you have it on ................. do you wear it in a car?

You are far more likely to have a head injury as a car occupant than as a cyclist.

You say that, but she claims to have had three potential KSIs on the bike in this period. I suspect (but might be wrong) that's a lot more than in the car.

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Re: Helmets in Spain

Postby mattheus » 30 Oct 2019, 1:05pm

rfryer wrote:
...
You are far more likely to have a head injury as a car occupant than as a cyclist.

You say that, but she claims to have had three potential KSIs on the bike in this period. I suspect (but might be wrong) that's a lot more than in the car.

Here's hoping - 6 potential KSIs would be a lot of lives to use up out of the allotted 9!


(Funnily enough, the person I know who has had the most serious-sounding bike crashes - including at least 1 concussion - has also rolled at least 2 cars on the public highway.)