Helmet reports show up concerns

This sub-forum all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmets will be moved here, if not placed here correctly in the first place.
Steady rider
Posts: 2187
Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Steady rider » 15 Nov 2019, 4:02pm

'Wearing a cycle helmet may increase risk of injury, says new research'
https://road.cc/content/news/268605-wea ... 2OSuO_yT0k
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... jury_rates

'Turns Out, Mandatory Helmet Laws Make Cyclists Less Safe'
https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a2980 ... aws-safety

Clarke CF Evaluating cycling fatality risk with a focus on cycle helmet use
http://worldtransportjournal.com/wp-con ... 4.4opt.pdf
Last edited by Steady rider on 19 Nov 2019, 8:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

tim-b
Posts: 1193
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby tim-b » 16 Nov 2019, 7:19am

~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 15019
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby mjr » 16 Nov 2019, 9:46am


By notorious helmet zealot Jake Olivier...
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 3410
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Oldjohnw » 16 Nov 2019, 9:55am

So. One report by a notorious helmet zealot. And the other is by a notorious anti-helmet zealot.

More heat than light.
John

Steady rider
Posts: 2187
Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Steady rider » 16 Nov 2019, 10:06am

Jake Olivier wrote;
Clarke’s primary argument is what I call the ‘helmet law as cycling deterrent’ hypothesis. There’s no real, solid evidence to support this hypothesis, yet it has not stopped those like Clarke to proclaim its truth to anyone who cares to listen

Olivier gave evidence to the Australian Senate in 2015
Senator David Leyonhjelm – Liberal Democratic Party stated;
During the course of the hearing, and based on available data, it became clear
MHL have undermined cycling participation rates. Attempts to argue to the contrary,
especially given evidence from around the world, were not at all persuasive.


https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bu ... m_report_d

Olivier and co authors have not been willing to accept the fact that helmet laws when enforced have discouraged cycling and have produced a number of misleading reports.

see
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/robinson-head-injuries.pdf
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/nz-clarke-2012.pdf published by the NZ Medical Journal
http://worldtransportjournal.com/wp-con ... 4.4opt.pdf note census data
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/au-assessment-2015.pdf

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17913
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Vorpal » 16 Nov 2019, 10:49am

None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound, which is only going to make the Oliviers of the world jump up and down and scream about bias.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

User avatar
Wanlock Dod
Posts: 556
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Wanlock Dod » 17 Nov 2019, 5:43pm

Vorpal wrote:None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound...

Would you be prepared to outline your concerns about the statistical analysis, and offer any suggestions as to how it might be improved?

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17913
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Vorpal » 17 Nov 2019, 5:59pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
Vorpal wrote:None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound...

Would you be prepared to outline your concerns about the statistical analysis, and offer any suggestions as to how it might be improved?

Maybe? My main problem is the time to do so.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

PaulaT
Posts: 27
Joined: 20 Dec 2018, 6:41pm
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby PaulaT » 18 Nov 2019, 10:03pm

Vorpal wrote:None of those are new research, and they aren't unfortunately entirely statistically sound, which is only going to make the Oliviers of the world jump up and down and scream about bias.


I do hope they're wearing helmets when engaged in such risky physical activity :D

Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 1006
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 19 Nov 2019, 6:13am

Not all ‘injuries’ are the same. Helmets reduce the risk of the sorts of injuries that are more likely to kill, or severely debilitate the rider.

Mike Sales
Posts: 4440
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Mike Sales » 19 Nov 2019, 7:12am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Not all ‘injuries’ are the same. Helmets reduce the risk of the sorts of injuries that are more likely to kill, or severely debilitate the rider.


Really? What makes you say that? Evidence?

In any case, the current uncertainty about any benefit from helmet wearing or promotion is unlikely to be substantially reduced by further research. Equally, we can be certain that helmets will continue to be debated, and at length. The enduring popularity of helmets as a proposed major intervention for increased road safety may therefore lie not with their direct benefits—which seem too modest to capture compared with other strategies—but more with the cultural, psychological, and political aspects of popular debate around risk.


Ben Goldacre, Wellcome research fellow in epidemiology, David Spiegelhalter, Winton professor for the public understanding of risk


https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full?ijkey=I5vHBog6FhaaLzX&keytype=ref


The tests which helmets are designed to pass simulate impacts of about 12 mph.

mattheus
Posts: 1542
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby mattheus » 19 Nov 2019, 1:08pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Not all ‘injuries’ are the same. Helmets reduce the risk of the sorts of injuries that are more likely to kill, or severely debilitate the rider.


Naaaaah ... it's almost certainly the opposite; they're REALLY good for mitigating minor cuts, grazes and bruises. Especially on the upper head - less so for dental injuries (which I've suffered and witnessed).

User avatar
Wanlock Dod
Posts: 556
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Wanlock Dod » 19 Nov 2019, 4:52pm

It is a great irony that the cycling conditions that helmets are designed for are exactly the kinds of conditions that many people choose not to wear a helmet for, and the kinds of conditions where helmets are unlikely to be very effective are just the kinds of conditions where lots of people believe that helmets are essential.

User avatar
philg
Posts: 441
Joined: 7 May 2009, 12:13pm
Location: Porlock, Somerset

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby philg » 19 Nov 2019, 5:24pm

Mike Sales wrote:The tests which helmets are designed to pass simulate impacts of about 12 mph.

Which if my (very) rusty Physics is correct, is almost exacty the value of the vertical component of velocity for a body (head) falling from a height of 2m, coincidence?

Sadly they are not designed for a horizontal impact of any speed higher than this (i.e. head butting a tree at 30mph) but in my not inconsiderable experience of parting company with my bike, this isn't commonplace, fortunately.

Mike Sales
Posts: 4440
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Helmet reports show up concerns

Postby Mike Sales » 19 Nov 2019, 5:37pm

philg wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:The tests which helmets are designed to pass simulate impacts of about 12 mph.

Which if my (very) rusty Physics is correct, is almost exacty the value of the vertical component of velocity for a body (head) falling from a height of 2m, coincidence?

Sadly they are not designed for a horizontal impact of any speed higher than this (i.e. head butting a tree at 30mph) but in my not inconsiderable experience of parting company with my bike, this isn't commonplace, fortunately.


There are other items which one's head might encounter with a horizontal component in its flight.
Walls, street furniture, curbs, even a motor vehicle.
I seem to remember head to windscreen impacts often mentioned.
Fortunately I have had too few offs to draw any conclusions.
I did bang my head on the road once, perhaps at the vertical downward speed of 12 mph. I was wearing a cotton Festina cap and did no noticeable damage to myself. I imagine our skulls evolved to handle bumps of this order.
I was replying to a poster who claimed foam hats work best at high impact energies.