** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[reohn2]

The problem with Brexit is the number of strands. Everyone is right and everyone wrong. What is clearly wrong is a blunt refusal to publish the Intelligence report on possible involvement by Foreign powers to influence Brexit. Reading between the lines there probably was I am guessing Russian involvement.After all its what all intelligence agencies do .They all regard it a good clean fun.
Russia might be backing the wrong card here. They have a implicit assumption that a weak NATO and EU is not detrimental to its safety but essential.An alternative analysis might point to dismantling the EU (via Brexit) and a weak NATO will lead breakaway countries to feel vulnerable. They will beef up defence. This presents Russia with a headache . To be dominant or keep parity in weaponry .They in turn would be forced to upscale their defence systems. Very expensive.
The second point is it like committees. To stall things immediately set one up. An EU which does not unravel will debate and dither. A breakaway country will thump the table in unstable situations and demand immediate action.

Worth a listen:- https://youtu.be/jZYR7n2gpOU

[al_yrpal]

vWhat I don't understand is that he is so dogmatically negative about Brussels and its members.
It's not perfect- that's a given - but I would personally like to see is stay at the round table and negotiate with the power of the Referendum result as bargaining chip.
((I actually think that's what Johnson actually wanted originally in the Referendum. But his bed is now made and he must lie ( no pun int) on it))

We all voted to Remain in a Common Market but Maarstricht changed that and gave birth to a Superstate composed of a multiplicity of divergent nations which is now heading even further in that direction. We have lost the ability to make our own laws control our own territory and seas. What has happened to other nation states within the EU really saddens me. The stories I hear from ordinary Romanians and Bulgarians that I see every day fly in the face of supposed EU benefits. Its too big, too overarching. I dont believe we enough influence in the EU either and we never will because it is still dominated by its founders rigid thinking. Part of that problem I will admit is because of our MEPs who reflect Britains discomfort with the EU. For me, the only way is to get out. Its the shakeup the EU needs and may enable them to wake up and smell the coffee.

Al

ps As for our kwacking friend. I retired in 2004 so the software I am talking about was written in about 1990 and has long been superceded. As for you evaluating it you wouldnt have a clue because it was written mainly in assembler. As for not having heard the term Chief Engineer, that just shows how little you actually know about Engineering businesses. Incidently my Dad drove steam trains and I remain very proud of him. If you can describe how you would go about designing a variable speed drive for a 20MW feed pump, a spark chamber or a hydrokinetic brake please let us know. Its a bit more testing than recycling second hand facts from the New Scientist or Google!

Al

[Cugel]

Al's not a difficult person to understand.

He's obviously spent most of his life as some sort of middle manager, the sort of guy who has little control of either those under him or those above him.
(snip)

You are not even close! How does starting and running an innovative business running for 15 years fit in with that? Eventually employing many people, serving an international customer base, setting up regional and overseas agencies. Writing ground breaking software and selling it all over the world, and finally selling the business for a tidy sum on retirement. And by the way Chief Engineers arent usually middle managers positions. I held that title for 15 years finally as a Director in my earlier career. Competent solid and innovative management is key to the success and longevity of Manufacturing Companies.

So much of the Remainer stuff asserted here isnt even worth commenting on, its so unbalanced and off the wall I often cant be bothered and just ignore it. I will refrain from spelling out what I think of you but rest assured it isnt in the least complimentary. Its a pity that you arent mature and tolerant enough to appreciate that everyone has the right to hold a different point of view.

Al

In my experience, middle managers subject to the often mad and impossible demands of the bigwigs and the moans and gripes of the put-upon lower orders are very aware of the multiple points of view with all their potential advantages and drawbacks. They have to be understanding and tolerant or else! They understand that location between the rock & the hard place.

That's not Al.

Al gives us the answer, above, as to why he is "always right" no matter how self-contradictory and incoherent his various proposals. He was in charge. His word was law. Those pointing out potential problems were "negative". In short, he has that blight of many modern "top men": Pollyanna-ism. Whatever he wants or does must, by definition, be good, right, appropriate. Those who gainsay him, no matter how reasonable their concerns, are negative, wrong, pessimists and so forth.

When things go right, it's all because Al was right. When things go wrong it's all because of the negative, wrong pessimists.

***
Sorry to descend into personality analyses. Personally I'd rather just deal with Al's propositions on their merits (or rather, complete lack of them).

Cugel

[kwackers]

ps As for our kwacking friend. I retired in 2004 so the software I am talking about was written in about 1990 and has long been superceded. As for you evaluating it you wouldnt have a clue because it was written mainly in assembler. As for not having heard the term Chief Engineer, that just shows how little you actually know about Engineering businesses. Incidently my Dad drove steam trains and I remain very proud of him. If you can describe how you would go about designing a variable speed drive for a 20MW feed pump, a spark chamber or a hydrokinetic brake please let us know. Its a bit more testing than recycling second hand facts from the New Scientist or Google!

Al

Assembler - what flavour would you like?
I've written 8080, 6502, z80, 68000, 8086-486, various RISC devices, various embedded processors, PIC's etc, lots of vector processors and of course their GPU offshoots - I've even written assembler for mini's and mainframes that where current whilst you were a lad. Can't be many flavours of assembler I haven't touched. (I can even write some of those at a machine code level from memory if you want)

After that pick your language, C, C++, C#, BASIC, FORTH, COBOL, FORTRAN, PHP, Javascript, Python - tbh it's a pointless list because so many are variants of others that there comes a point where you can get the gist of the syntax just by looking at a code snippet.

Then of course there are the scripting languages, LUA and their ilk.
I also have a pretty comprehensive list of OS's for a decent number of machines including both current and ancient.

Finally whilst my knowledge is sketchy I could hold an half decent conversation about machine learning to boot.

So as you can imagine I reckon I'm more than qualified to give your little bit of assembler the once over - and I can do it from an historic perspective so no need to worry that I'd be viewing it entirely through my "javascript" eyes.

For all the companies I've worked for none have ever had a "chief" engineer though.
Technical leads, senior, junior engineers etc but no "chief"s.

If you want me to design a speed control for a pump then I'll need a bit more information other than "20MW feed pump" - means nothing. What sort of motor is it for a start.
(Did I mention I'm a qualified electronics engineer?)

As for your dad, he sounds like he might have been interesting - assuming you didn't inherit some of your worst attributes from him.
We could talk about trains - I've got a small 3.5 inch gauge one part built, sadly workshop time is pretty limited but I've always got time for someone who knows their stuff.
(Steam I hope, can't be bothered with those new fangled diesels).

[reohn2]

We all voted to Remain in a Common Market but Maarstricht changed that and gave birth to a Superstate composed of a multiplicity of divergent nations which is now heading even further in that direction. We have lost the ability to make our own laws control our own territory and seas.

Which is just wrong there is no "superstate",and the UK in the EU would have a veto on such a vot.
We do control our own laws and our own seas.

What has happened to other nation states within the EU really saddens me. The stories I hear from ordinary Romanians and Bulgarians that I see every day fly in the face of supposed EU benefits. Its too big, too overarching

Who are these people you have daily contact with?

. I dont believe we enough influence in the EU either and we never will because it is still dominated by its founders rigid thinking

We are one of the three largest contributors so we do have influence in th EU.

Part of that problem I will admit is because of our MEPs who reflect Britains discomfort with the EU

You mean like Farafpge who just doesn't show up but takes his salary

For me, the only way is to get out. Its the shakeup the EU needs and may enable them to wake up and smell the coffee.

Our leaving will hurt both parties but it will hurt the UK far,far more than it will Europe

[Oldjohnw]

I've asked before but without an answer, but which laws are we not able to make?

[al_yrpal]

Twenty Megawatt start up and standby power station boiler feed pump drive driven by an induction motor. The gas circulator drives at Dungeness B. The manoeuvring gear on HMS Invincible class carriers. The drives on drift mine conveyors like Selby. Cable Belt drives at Broken Hill. DN181 Prototype. Decanter and pusher centrifuges. The hose reel protectors on Flight Refueling tankers. Armoured face conveyor drives. Large air handling units at places like the Arndale Centres. Shop equipment for all the first UK hypermarkets. Experimental equipment at CERN. UV coaters and stackers for print, record sleeves. Early stereo lithography printers....and much more.
I often drove shunting steam engines for short distances guided by my Dad when we went to Stratford depot to collect his pay.
I did a lot more than writing computer programs, I got staff to do that because they were better at it than me. In any Engineering Company the buck stops with the Chief Engineer. Back then there were no peripheral people like Vorpal to watch over everything. Lack of judgement could land you in big trouble.



Al

[Mick F]

.... Lack of judgement could land you in big trouble.

It was ever thus.

Blame the Tories.

[Polisman]

.... Lack of judgement could land you in big trouble.

It was ever thus.

Blame the Tories.

As does not knowing when to keep a reign on your tongue.

Least said, soonest mended.

[horizon]

As an independent Nation State we will be no one's puppet. Asserting that we will, again demonstrates lack of confidence in Britain.

Al

Al: as an independent nation state outside the EU we will be principally puppets of the US, but also of a half dozen multinationals, lots of free-floating finance and, soon to come, China. We no longer have an industrial base that we can call our own. Look who's buying British Steel (I trust they will change the name to spare our blushes). Unlike many of my fellow forumites, Al, I respect your sense of Britishness and loyalty to what is obviously a lost cause. TSR2, the Austin Maxi, Concorde. Great, but gone. The world that I want to belong to now is one of environmentalists and internationalists. Went to a farmers' market today: not much pesticide or GM in sight. The future is organic, European, carbon-neutral, local, badger-friendly and bicycles. Plus a few Ryanair flights. Brexit may come and Brexit may go, but the world moves on and will leave Brexit behind. The alternative is a horrible UK run by a class of people who care little for wildlife or the poor. The next generation will vote with its feet: not physically to Europe but to different ways of working and living. And the working class Brexit generation will pass on, possibly poorer and certanly more exploited than ever.

[al_yrpal]

Horizon, oh dear..ye of little faith! Britain has changed. In the face of huge odds we are still just about holding our own despite the Jonahs assertions. Our country is still a magnet for clever folk who want a better life. Things are difficult all around the world, we arent alone with our problems. Dont know what sort of work you do but I still have many friends in spheres that are doing well and doing unique and exciting new things with massive potential. If the Chinese make a success of Scunthorpe I'll eat my hat.
Two old friends from Maine were here with us last week. Its 10 years since I last saw them. They are Democrats, they are really nice and they are well aware of Americas failings. The US has many people like them. America isnt all bad and I can see the time coming when huge powerful corporations exesses will be better controlled but not curbed and squashed. However these same corporations have gifted the human race massive personal benefits its all too easy to cast them as evil. Four legs good, two legs bad was a mindless chant like 'wicked Tories'. The serial scaremongering just doesnt wash. Its sad so many seem to be willing Britain to fail.

Al

[Cowsham]

As an independent Nation State we will be no one's puppet. Asserting that we will, again demonstrates lack of confidence in Britain.

Al

Al: as an independent nation state outside the EU we will be principally puppets of the US, but also of a half dozen multinationals, lots of free-floating finance and, soon to come, China. We no longer have an industrial base that we can call our own. Look who's buying British Steel (I trust they will change the name to spare our blushes). Unlike many of my fellow forumites, Al, I respect your sense of Britishness and loyalty to what is obviously a lost cause. TSR2, the Austin Maxi, Concorde. Great, but gone. The world that I want to belong to now is one of environmentalists and internationalists. Went to a farmers' market today: not much pesticide or GM in sight. The future is organic, European, carbon-neutral, local, badger-friendly and bicycles. Plus a few Ryanair flights. Brexit may come and Brexit may go, but the world moves on and will leave Brexit behind. The alternative is a horrible UK run by a class of people who care little for wildlife or the poor. The next generation will vote with its feet: not physically to Europe but to different ways of working and living. And the working class Brexit generation will pass on, possibly poorer and certanly more exploited than ever.

Austin Maxi ?

[pete75]

Four legs good, two legs bad was a mindless chant like 'wicked Tories'. The serial scaremongering just doesnt wash. Its sad so many seem to be willing Britain to fail.

Al

No more mindless than labeling everyone left of centre a Trot.

[Cugel]

As an independent Nation State we will be no one's puppet. Asserting that we will, again demonstrates lack of confidence in Britain.

Al

Al: as an independent nation state outside the EU we will be principally puppets of the US, but also of a half dozen multinationals, lots of free-floating finance and, soon to come, China. We no longer have an industrial base that we can call our own. Look who's buying British Steel (I trust they will change the name to spare our blushes). Unlike many of my fellow forumites, Al, I respect your sense of Britishness and loyalty to what is obviously a lost cause. TSR2, the Austin Maxi, Concorde. Great, but gone. The world that I want to belong to now is one of environmentalists and internationalists. Went to a farmers' market today: not much pesticide or GM in sight. The future is organic, European, carbon-neutral, local, badger-friendly and bicycles. Plus a few Ryanair flights. Brexit may come and Brexit may go, but the world moves on and will leave Brexit behind. The alternative is a horrible UK run by a class of people who care little for wildlife or the poor. The next generation will vote with its feet: not physically to Europe but to different ways of working and living. And the working class Brexit generation will pass on, possibly poorer and certanly more exploited than ever.

Austin Maxi ?

From the Golden Age of British Engineering and Manufacturing, when British cars were SImply The Best, especially those from Leyland. The rusty bits and breakdowns provided many jobs for garages up and down the land!

Al would simply like you to realise that everything is as it should be, in Little England, the best of all possible worlds since it's the world that's extant. No carping about austerity, foodbanks, right wing hooligans or raping&pillaging the planet! All these must be good because they are occurring and part of Providence's Great Plan.

You may not realise it but Al has been put up for the Dr Pangloss Award, which is given out by The Tories to anyone brave enough to be their advocate no matter what nasty things they do. Huzzah!

Cugel

[al_yrpal]

Cugel....

Eric said it .... https://youtu.be/SJUhlRoBL8M

We did make some wonderful cars, they are very sought after now. As for my Maxis they were brilliant at the time 25000 miles a year for many years without a hitch, crumby gearbox though.

I'll reserve my comments about yourself. You obviously think you are amusing, so you have at least one fan

Al