Bosch ebike motor

[neilob]

I have a road/gravel bike fitted with the Bosch Active Line system (250w motor, 500wh PowerTube battery). For riding on private land and trails I am thinking of moving the speed sensor from the rear wheel to the crank. I fully understand that this is not legal on the road and could invalidate any warranty, so please don’t feel inclined to remind me of these things. The consequence is that the bike electronics are tricked into thinking that cadence is actually speed and because cadence is a lot lower than rear wheel revolutions it allows the 15.6 mph limit to be exceeded. One inmediate problem is that the speed display is wrong but that can be overcome by using a Garmin. My question however is how would this modification impact the delivery of power and the application of torque?

[hamish]

Not reminding you about the road legality thing... But it would also be illegal off road on bridleways and trail centres unless the landowner has given you permission.

[stodd]

My question however is how would this modification impact the delivery of power and the application of torque?

I think you will get more response if you ask this at Pedalecs, https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/forums ... cussion.2/
Lots of very well informed people; sadly you'll need to filter out some less well informed and some unnecessary acrimony.

But it would also be illegal off road on bridleways and trail centres unless the landowner has given you permission.

To clarify: illegal on bridleways with or without landowner permission. Only legal on private land with landowner permission and with no public access. It is very unlikely to be more than a technical issue unless you are involved in an accident.

[Phil Fouracre]

Nope! Won’t make any difference, all you’re doing is fooling the ‘activation’ side of the control system. As you say you’ll upset the speed cos it’s calibrated on the assumption that the sensor is where it’s supposed to be. A friend uses a dongle to fool his Bosch system.

[hemo]

Depending on the accident a rider/user could end up in jail if a pedestrian is killed or severely injured.

[hemo]

A Badass dongle is needed to fool the bike speed properly.

[stodd]

I understand from posts on pedalecs that modern Bosch motors are much more difficult to dongle. Though I can't see how it could know if you are lying about the speed by moving the sensor as suggested in the original post

[willcee]

I'm becoming more and more rattled by those on here who jump on every chance to rail at E bikes and criticise the want or wish to ride them on or off road , away from public ,off piste if you like and who the hell in any real world situation is going to ask them what they are about. The law has more to do than police every hole in the hedge every public bridleway or lane with no traffic.. dear God they know that every day in the UK there are more people driving without tax or insurance or on poor tyres than ever would be aboard E bikes with a dongle attached and perhaps away from where they could do much harm, why do contributors feel the need to police and voice their narrow minded opinions on everything to do with Electrification of a pedal cycle.. better to get on a suitable forum and rail about speeding cars or using a cell phone while driving. much good may it do them... will

[hamish]

y willcee » 16 Dec 2019, 11:52pm

I'm becoming more and more rattled by those on here who jump on every chance to rail at E bikes and criticise the want or wish to ride them on or off road , away from public ,off piste if you like and who the hell in any real world situation is going to ask them what they are about. The law has more to do than police every hole in the hedge every public bridleway or lane with no traffic.. dear God they know that every day in the UK there are more people driving without tax or insurance or on poor tyres than ever would be aboard E bikes with a dongle attached and perhaps away from where they could do much harm, why do contributors feel the need to police and voice their narrow minded opinions on everything to do with Electrification of a pedal cycle.. better to get on a suitable forum and rail about speeding cars or using a cell phone while driving. much good may it do them... will

You may get rattled by people reminding others about the nuance of the law with regard to access and bikes off road... but there are bigger issues at stake here. Some of us here also have something of a professional interest in countryside management and know that there are tensions building around ebike use off road. Sticking to legal ebikes will help avoid these tensions. It's not just about us individuals and what we want to do....

[willcee]

Certainly. I'm sure i would understand if those to whom you refer would first tackle the more obvious targets in countryside environment management instead of attacking the softest and most recent target in their sights.. I mean perhaps a few hundred chaps using LI batteries Versus the thousands of legal and otherwise 2 and 4 stroked moto crossers . trail bikes,rallye cars, off road landrovers.. yeah I can see how they really weigh up against such a dedicated following that those mentioned still haven't got much handle on.. so i will continue to rail and it would be illuminating to be clued up on these tensions within ''professional interest in countryside management'' .. will

[billym444]

heres the thing and its a very important thing.

I build bike and batteries. i have to types of buyer for bikes over 250w.

first you have the mad people who want speed. these people dont care where they ride and how the ride, the law matter very little to these people, so no point even preaching to them as its a waist of ttime.

then theres the type 2 who want over 250w, must of theses, are larger older and more unfit riders, who want more power on hills when needed, ive done a few of these and a number have restricted them to 15mph, and yes we all know that this is still illigal. i have an 18 stone guy who wanted to get out, very unfit and all he wanted was grunt and not speed.

Of course, we can fit there rebadged bafang 250w that are really 500w motors, but as they can be unrestricted there still not legal, untill a road leagl 48v motor comes out with the low end grunt of a 500w+ plus motor grunt, people are goning to take the risk.

the problem is and has never been the motor size or speed, as with all things its the rider behaver at fault.

final note, the other day in the car i had a cyclest flying, riding like an idot, weaving in and out of cars, it wasnt an electric bike. the bikes never at fault only the rider.

[hamish]

The whole reason for pointing out that ebikes that are illegal on the road are also illegal on footpaths is because some people aren't aware of this... and may want to know before they spend time and money getting hold of a 'chipped' ebike.

If they don't care then fine. I am not a great one for rules so if you are going to break them then fine. Get on your high horse if that helps you, but it won't help anything or anyone else.

As for the argument itself...

Everyone knows that illegal 4x4 and motor bike off-roaders are illegal and damaging and that managing the whole issue is difficult. But drawing attention to that won't help bike access issues.

The whole point is that restricted ebikes kind of mimic normal bikes, so their used off road adds little ammunition to an already anti bike lobby. Allow them to be lots faster and suddenly you have an added reason to rail against bikes. I have experienced the anti bike sentiment in a recent meeting. When you consider that Wales is on the cusp of increasing cycling access off road, but that there is a significant opposition, it's easy to appreciate that we don't want to hand out excuses for people to attack us.

The same goes for trail centres where non restricted ebikes mix badly with the pedal only bikes and restricted ebikes, trail providers don't want to have to build two sets of trails.

Now I'm not saying that the law shouldn't change, it may be that allowing an increase in speed would be fine, but that should be an informed relaxation, not simply the removal of restrictions or the tolerance of illegal ebikes off road.

I rode a borrowed ebike on a bridleway today. An ebike that I find frustrating on the road because I continuously hit top assisted speed and find it a dog to pedal faster. Off road, 15mph seems plenty and I rarely top out.

[Polisman]

Round our way the big problem is 4x4s and trial bike riders especially them. They tear up great swathes of tracks and turn them to mud baths in no time.

The local police do not give a toss about it. I really can't see them getting out of their comfy cars and venturing into the hills to hunt down people riding 500w ebikes either, and in fact I think the suggestion that they would do so somewhat laughable. There's anti bike sentiment everywhere, it's universal, and vociferous, adding ebikes to the mix, whatever sort is hardly going to change it.

On the scale of 'crime' I'm sure it barely even registers on a coppers radar. Sorry to burst your indignation, but ebikes aren't even in the ball park for rural police, and if you think they are, you're very much mistaken. They have much more serious and sensible work to occupy their time.

[willcee]

HERE HERE.. someone who actually knows and appreciates what is happening on the ground.. it is a different world out in the sticks.. and agri crime is what ''they'' are all clued up about now.. will

[hamish]

The point is not about whether or not the police are interested or who does the most damage. There are two points I tried to make:

1. Some people do care about whether they are riding a legal bike. Some of those people may be under the misapprehension that an unrestricted ebike that is illegal on the road, may well be legal off road. This is not the case. The unrestricted ebike is as illegal as a motorbike when ridden on a bridleway.

If you don't care then that's fine. But I thought it worth mentioning given the OP's original statement.

2. Some people do care whether they are allowed to ride on a given path or not. Given that access legislation is being reviewed in some parts of the U.K., and that there is a significant anti bike lobby trying to restrict the extent of any relaxation about cycling on footpaths, etc, it would be regrettable if the anti bike lobby had another excuse (in the form of complaints about extra fast ebikes on bridleways) to offer in defence of their poiition. I for one am hoping for wider access in the future.

Where I live and work, motorbikes and off-roaders are not the big issue. But there is conflict between cyclists, riders and walkers on some footpaths and bridleways. Not serious conflict but some animosity is often expressed. Ebikes aren't normally singled out but certain reference has been made for example, to an "electric motorbike". The said electric motorbike was a converted electric Pugsley.

The fact that an unrestricted ebike is illegal off road is relevant. The debate about ebikes at trail centres is complicated by the fact that many are unrestricted. Unrestricted (in speed terms) ebikes don't mix well with normal bikes or ebikes.